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chellethinques
Permanent Resident

USA
1431 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  08:30:51 AM  Show Profile Send chellethinques a Private Message
OK - big moral/ethical/legal question here...I try to play by the rules, and would not (for example) photocopy a purchased pattern for someone else, and I would not use a free internet pattern for profit, etc. But -- what if I check a book out from the library and want to make ONE item? What do you think about copying one pattern for personal use? (If it were more than one item and I would probably buy the book used somewhere.)
I know there are specific copyright rules for teachers, for example, that allow for one chapter or a certain number of pages in a book for classroom use, but I wasn't sure about this. I can only imagine the work that goes into pattern design and book writing, and I want to be honest, even if I'm on a very tight budget.

If we are indeed made in the image of our Creator, it stands to reason that we are most like that Creator when we are creating something ourselves.

crise
Chatty Knitter

337 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  08:51:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit crise's Homepage Send crise a Private Message
I too am on a very tight budget. I don't see how making something from a book you took from the library is any different than photocopying it.

If you kept the book for several weeks, you would be at the same end result.

Just my opinion.

Kris

Kris

2005 stats: 1 FO, 2 WIP, 2 USO,
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Renocat
Permanent Resident

1327 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  08:54:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Renocat's Homepage Send Renocat a Private Message
I tend to go by the "for personal use only" disclaimer. I would and have copied a pattern from a library book because I am using the pattern for my personal use only.
I don't know if that is legally correct but that is how I interpret it.
Kim

I have a blog! http://kimsknitpage.blogspot.com/
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Lissa
Permanent Resident

USA
4942 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  08:55:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit Lissa's Homepage Send Lissa a Private Message
While it doesn't make sense logically, the law (however murky) is the law. Your logic is sound, but the law prohibits it. I'm sure Bess will have something to add to this discussion - she runs the Rappahanak (sp!) library.

Lissa

Hey - I MEANT to do that!
Oh, and I now have a blog:http://knittnlissa.typepad.com/knittnlissa/
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of troy
Permanent Resident

USA
2474 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  09:12:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit of troy's Homepage Send of troy a Private Message
Its quite ethical to copy a pattern (or even 2) patterns from a library book. --provided of course they are for your own personal use.

you could make a garment, enter it in a state fair, even, and win a blue ribbon, but you can't make the garment for SALE unless you have permission (you could give it to a family member as a gift (christmas, birthday) but to knit for sale, you need permission.

the 'general rule' (but i does vary from state to state, and is different in Commonwealth countries, even though we all use the same english common law as a basis for most civil law!) is up to about 5% (some places 10%!) can be copied, for personal use, with out permission.. so the book is 100 pages, you can copy 5 pages.. with out any quams!



See my photo albums, (edit-NO PASSWORD REQUIRED) http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/oftroy/
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Licensed2Cook
Permanent Resident

USA
3554 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  09:18:41 AM  Show Profile  Send Licensed2Cook a Yahoo! Message Send Licensed2Cook a Private Message
A library book, that your taxes helped pay for, one item for your own personal use? I'd do it and not think twice. If it bothers you that much then after you've made the item shred the "copies".


Dee
~Licensed2Knit
www.Kneatles.com
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ShannonM
Gabber Extraordinaire

352 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  09:20:42 AM  Show Profile Send ShannonM a Private Message
copying a pattern from the library for your own personal use falls fairly clearly within the "fair use" exception to the copyright laws. It's similar to videotaping a show for viewing later or copying an article from a magazine if you want to remember the information. Copying the whole book or large portions of it could theoretically get you into trouble, but there's nothing illegal (or unethical, in my opinion) in copying a pattern so that you can make the item.
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amandaCO
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
530 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  10:19:32 AM  Show Profile Send amandaCO a Private Message
I have copied many patterns from different library books. One thing I have found is that after a while, if I am continually checking out the same book over and over...I end up buying it. If I love it that much, I figure I NEED it. For all the books I don't buy after copying a pattern, I have no ethical issues and sleep just fine at night.
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BessH
Permanent Resident

3095 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  10:21:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit BessH's Homepage Send BessH a Private Message
Well, I don't run the Rappahannock Library, but I do run the Essex Public Library in Tappahannock, of Michael Moore movie fame. Fair use allows you to copy one pattern from a library book and knit the item for your personal (or gift) use, but not to sell.

A much murkier issue is: "for educational purposes" and the question: "Is it permissable to photocopy the instructions for a crocheted steek from a library book and hand it out to your students."

The knowledge is not copywrited, but the wording is - so in my case, I always rewrite the information "IN MY OWN WORDS" a la 6th grade research papers.



Bess
http://likethequeen.blogspot.com
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~rosie~
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
435 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  11:19:22 AM  Show Profile Send ~rosie~ a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lissa

While it doesn't make sense logically, the law (however murky) is the law. Your logic is sound, but the law prohibits it.

Howso?

I'm hopelessly addicted. I'm strung out on yarn.
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Momma78239
Permanent Resident

USA
4859 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  11:28:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit Momma78239's Homepage  Send Momma78239 a Yahoo! Message Send Momma78239 a Private Message
Thanks for the clarification, Bess!

-Wendy
____________
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KnitSSK
Seriously Hooked

USA
656 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  11:29:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit KnitSSK's Homepage Send KnitSSK a Private Message
The things we learn and the people we meet here...

Bess, I live outside of DC but have a weekend getaway between Warsaw and Callao. So, I'm through Tappahonnock several times each month. And, my husband is a professional librarian, but with a university consortium in DC. Where do you get your knitting supplies? I found the Knitting Sisters shop in Williamsburg a fantastic shop, but haven't gone to any in F'burg or Richmond.

Martha

Wanting to be knitting, not working...
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chellethinques
Permanent Resident

USA
1431 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  12:15:28 PM  Show Profile Send chellethinques a Private Message
Thanks for all the info and clarification! I thought it was probably OK, but now it's confirmed. :)

If we are indeed made in the image of our Creator, it stands to reason that we are most like that Creator when we are creating something ourselves.
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fillyjonk
Permanent Resident

1127 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  1:45:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit fillyjonk's Homepage Send fillyjonk a Private Message
And I think when it's an OOP (out-of-print) book, it becomes even murkier.

I'd have much less "heartburn" copying a pattern (or more than one) from a book that I knew was out of print (and not likely to come back into print any time soon) than I would for one currently available. (In fact, if I checked a currently available book out and found more than, say, three patterns I'd like to make, I'd almost certainly buy the book). But out of print books are a different matter - buying and selling used copies is perfectly legal, but the author receives no "residuals" for sales of used copies (I know there was a flap a few years back - a country singer - I forget who - wanted to shut down sales of used CDs as he said it cut into his profit margin. Well, maybe, if people were taping the CD and then reselling the original. But if it was a lousy CD and you decided after one listen you didn't want it any more...) But anyway. I tend to figure "fair use" covers a pattern or two out of a library book, and I'm glad to see my suspicions confirmed.

I will say I wish that fair use was a little more liberal with scholarly journal articles. We have a most impoverished university library where I teach (chronically underfunded) and while they do the best they can, sometimes we bump up against the "five articles a year per journal" limit, which is frustrating. I mean, knitting is one thing, doing research that can lead to tenure and promotion is another....
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BessH
Permanent Resident

3095 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  2:53:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit BessH's Homepage Send BessH a Private Message
It IS a tough issue - and we do want to be fair to the creators, and as librarians, we're always trying to make information available to all who need it. It's a constant balance act.

In some ways it's easier for us in a public situation, because the demands are lighter - and as time goes on, we're seeing more and more consortium purchasing that tends to expand the pool, even for the teensy libraries like ours.

For sure, one reason I teach so many knitting classes is to produce a "customer base" for all the knitting books I'd like to buy for the library. Heh. heh. heh.

Bess
http://likethequeen.blogspot.com
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Musicknitter
Chatty Knitter

USA
334 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  6:23:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Musicknitter's Homepage Send Musicknitter a Private Message
As a musician that currently teaches band, used to work in a music store and just attended a seminar on music copyright there is one big point that I follow. (I'm not saying this is necessarily legally right, I'm not a lawyer....)
DO NOT COPY TO AVOID PURCHASE. I will not buy one book and copy it for all my students.
The exceptions: Borrowing is okay, someone has purchased the music, and if they aren't using it, someone might as well use it. I will borrow music from another school and perform it on a concert and then return it. I will lend students a book and ask for it back when they are done with it. If they will use the music extensively, then I will have them purchase it.
Copying to preserve an original copy is okay. If I know my student's dog will eat their music, I'm not going to send an expensive book home with them. I just try and keep the music I copied on the shelf while they are using the copy.

So, how I translate this into knitting. Borrow from the library, a friend, whoever. Knit out of the book, make photo copies especially if you need to mark up the pattern or it's a popular book. Buy the book if you really like it, show the author/publisher that you like it.
Sorry if this is a long way of saying what was already said.

-Erin
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chellethinques
Permanent Resident

USA
1431 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2005 :  8:05:09 PM  Show Profile Send chellethinques a Private Message
Aah - that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm a bit of a hoarder and I can totally see myself with binders full of photocopied patterns "just in case." Obviously, I haven't done that, but I have that dark potential, LOL. I think that's different than copying one pattern, making it up, and tossing the instructions.

If we are indeed made in the image of our Creator, it stands to reason that we are most like that Creator when we are creating something ourselves.
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Lissa
Permanent Resident

USA
4942 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2005 :  07:20:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Lissa's Homepage Send Lissa a Private Message
Bess, sorry for the goof - I"m TOTALLY geographically challenged!

Lissa

Hey - I MEANT to do that!
Oh, and I now have a blog:http://knittnlissa.typepad.com/knittnlissa/
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BessH
Permanent Resident

3095 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2005 :  07:39:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit BessH's Homepage Send BessH a Private Message
Lissa

Bess
http://likethequeen.blogspot.com
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paper tiger
Chatty Knitter

282 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2005 :  12:26:35 PM  Show Profile Send paper tiger a Private Message
Just to add another factor to the copyright debate -- are the designs in the book all by the same person? For example, the 5-10% fair use rule doesn't apply to the total page count of an anthology. These questions will become thornier, no doubt, as electronic media grows more prevalent.

I must confess that, contrary to the rules, I have printed more than one copy of Knitty patterns. They're still for my personal use -- I just tend to lose a page or two as I'm working on the project.

And some knitting writers/designers even recommend making a copy of the pattern you're working on, for two reasons: so you can annotate as needed; and in case you lose it.
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purlwise
Chatty Knitter

259 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2005 :  8:07:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit purlwise's Homepage Send purlwise a Private Message
Here's a twist on this subject.

About two years ago I purchased "Knitting on the Road" (by Nancy Bush) and decided to knit the Christmas stocking. Since I do most of my sock knitting while commuting to work, I decided I would go to Office Max and make a color copy of the chart so I wouldn't have to haul the book around. The clerk had qualms about making one copy of the chart for my personal use, even though I owned the book. I can't remember how I convinced him it was ok, but he did eventually did make the copy.

By the way, I've noticed that some knitting books will include a statement at the front of the book that says it's ok to copy a chart for personal use.

Musicknitter said:
quote:
I will borrow music from another school and perform it on a concert and then return it.


My niece is a composer, and if I'm not mistaken, she likes to get paid whenever her music is performed. So legally, I don't think you can just borrow a copy of music and perform it without having permission of the copyright holder, even if someone has paid for the sheet music. At least that's what she has mentioned to me.

Regards,
Melinda
www.purlwise.com
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