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vicky by the bay
Permanent Resident

USA
4768 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2005 :  8:19:49 PM  Show Profile Send vicky by the bay a Private Message
When I purchase a pattern book, I copy all the patterns I plan to knit. I try not to write on my patterns/books and want to write myself notes and carry the pattern w/ me in my little bag....Can't carry around a big book. So as I understand it, as long as I purchased the book, and I'm only using the copy so I won't damage the book, and I don't give or sell the copies to others........I can do so...is that correct or am I breaking the law....I won't lose any sleep over it. Now I do respect the designers rights, so I wouldn't be inclined to give any of my copies away or sell them to friends and acquaintances.

Vicky (Queen O'Yarn archivist-QYA)
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Andy
Seriously Hooked

USA
774 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2005 :  9:10:15 PM  Show Profile Send Andy a Private Message
It needs to be mentioned, I think, that copyright laws are more challenged at this time, perhaps due to the internet, copy machines, duplication systems of all kinds, etc. than ever before. These issues are apparently in a process of adaptation to change. The motive, as was mentioned above, seems most important...not to avoid purchasing. Since we are in the early part of a burgeoning information age we do have to think about these things on our own level of integrity. We see there are not enough teeth in the laws to protect musician's intellectual property, for instance. Just thought I'd mention that this is a thing of this time. Before copy machines were so available, there was no question. People used to hand copy music to play it if it were no longer available for sale, as I recall...
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Sabrina Fair
Seriously Hooked

United Kingdom
639 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  02:32:21 AM  Show Profile Send Sabrina Fair a Private Message
I always copy my patterns when I am working from them for the duration of the work. I write notes over them especially as some are written in Norwegian and I have to translate them. I don't want to damage or loose the book which I like to keep as neat as possible or similarly the paper pattern which I store at home long term.

What about this. I buy a knit kit and the pattern is not available elsewhere except with the expensivce kit. I knit the kit and pass/sell on a pattern which in the retail secetor would only be available if you bought associated yarn in kit form. Now the pattern is in the public domain without the compulsion to buy the stipulated yarn. Is this prohibited?

Sabrina

Sabrina fair,
Listen where thou art sitting
Under the glassy, cool, translucent wave,
In twisted braids of lilies knitting
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probablyjane
Permanent Resident

United Kingdom
1227 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  05:33:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit probablyjane's Homepage Send probablyjane a Private Message
Moving the topic on slightly, what if one did want to make things for sale? Obviously, an identifyiable and individaul desogn which could be clearly traced back to the designer shouldn't be traded on for profit but in the case of a lot of things, a basic sock or beret pattern for example has been around for centuries - nobody could claim it as their copyright despite us all using standard patterns from various publishers. Where is the line normally drawn between 'standard' patterns and individual design? For socks I use a standard pattern which is virtually identical in several books and patterns that I own but adapt it to the way that I like the sock to be - have I designed it or does the copyright belong to someone else?

Probably making too much of a meal of this but I'm a bit confused.

Jane



http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/janelithgow/album
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Sorka
Gabber Extraordinaire

486 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  07:30:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit Sorka's Homepage  Send Sorka a Yahoo! Message Send Sorka a Private Message
Ahh see you all have influenced me I am going to lean on my library heavily to get more knitting books!! I sinply can't afford to buy them.. so I either use ones off the net or, now .. am borrowing them.. Scarf Style,and Knitting on the Edge were just yesterday on the on order list at my library and today.. they are in delivery.. so I requested them!! (I am dying to see how to make those spiral fringes!!)heheh.. that'll show em they need more knitting books.. I actually think they are the only ones they will have at this point (it is a new branch so I have to cut them some slack!)

I don't understand.. why..if you buy a pattern, they say you can only use it for personal use.. frankly, any pattern I design, if you buy it, use it for what you want knock yourself out.. I know I will be using it to sell the items..and I have made money by selling the pattern. But if the author/designer stipulates that I am not going to do it.

And say.. I use a method.. like how to make the spiral fringes in my own design.. is that infringing? because you can't copyright a method.. you have to patent it.. from my understanding..
Denise

Oh yeah!! I have a Blog now! www.kwon.relatedhelp.com
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paper tiger
Chatty Knitter

282 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  12:30:55 PM  Show Profile Send paper tiger a Private Message
Sabrina -- that's tricky. If you sell your only copy -- so you no longer have it -- that almost sounds like the second-hand-book problem. Do note that it would NOT be "in the public domain," which is a specialized term meaning that the material is old enough that copyright no longer applies. (For books, copyright term is at least 75 years and often more.) I think it would be unethical to charge more for the original copy than a comparable pattern would cost... but the original designer would probably not like it.

The borrowing music for performance issue resembles the selling an item from a copyrighted pattern problem; lending the set of music is one thing (like lending a book) but performing it might involve selling tickets and would be a different issue.

If you're copyrighting a pattern (even without filing, many creative endeavors are protected), presumably there is something distinctive that you have included in the pattern, which is why your "intellectual property" is your own. In books, a general rule of thumb is that if you can find the same information in three separate sources, it's considered "general knowledge."
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RachelKnitter
Permanent Resident

USA
2995 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  3:23:04 PM  Show Profile Send RachelKnitter a Private Message
It is perfectly legal to resell a pattern, book, magazine, sheet music, cd, etc., when you no longer want it, provided that you do not make and keep a copy of said item before selling it. Once you have paid for that item, it is yours, and you may dispose of it as you choose, whether that means resell, give away, or throw away. (And when given the other option of simply throwing it away, doesn't giving it away or selling it so someone else can make use of it suddenly sound like the much nobler option?)

This site is the best site I have seen on the web regarding knitting and copyright.
http://www.geocities.com/jbtocker/copyright/
There's also info on girlfromauntie.com, however she is Canadian, so us U.S. folks are probably better off with the Geocities site.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep; his cupidity may at some point be satiated: but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C.S. Lewis
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chellethinques
Permanent Resident

USA
1431 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  4:20:21 PM  Show Profile Send chellethinques a Private Message
Regarding knitting items for sale - I don't know if this term is in use in the knitting industry, but in rubber stamping there are "angel" policies that allow you to use stamped images in items for resale. (I could make a killing at craft shows...hmm, a new way to fund yarn? LOL.)

If we are indeed made in the image of our Creator, it stands to reason that we are most like that Creator when we are creating something ourselves.
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YarnGoddess
Permanent Resident

USA
2460 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  07:41:19 AM  Show Profile Send YarnGoddess a Private Message
Hi all

I'm a newbie here. I saw this post about Knitting Sisters in Williamsburg. GREAT shop! I picked up knitting Dec. 2003 while at a needlework seminar in Williamsburg. Knitting Sisters is where I bought my first skeins of yarn and my first set of needles for what has now become and obsession.

"I found the Knitting Sisters shop in Williamsburg a fantastic shop, but haven't gone to any in F'burg or Richmond."



Elizabeth
Zipper & Diva

"A sense of humor can help you tolerate the unpleasant, cope with the unexpected, overlook the unattractive and smile through the unbearable."
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cableready
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
386 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  08:08:54 AM  Show Profile Send cableready a Private Message
Thanks for posting the link Rachelknitter. It does a great job of explaining copyright and knitting and addressing many FAQs.

Pamela
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Sabrina Fair
Seriously Hooked

United Kingdom
639 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  10:52:55 AM  Show Profile Send Sabrina Fair a Private Message
So to follow from my post and PaperTiger and RachelKnitter replies we could on this forum operate a pattern swap. So for instance we would need an honesty system but I could loan a pattern I have finished with to someone, they could knit up the garment say using non kit and perhaps cheaper yarn and then I could get my pattern back. No law broken

Sabrina

Sabrina fair,
Listen where thou art sitting
Under the glassy, cool, translucent wave,
In twisted braids of lilies knitting
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littleturtlemama
Chatty Knitter

100 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  11:51:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit littleturtlemama's Homepage Send littleturtlemama a Private Message
quote:
So to follow from my post and PaperTiger and RachelKnitter replies we could on this forum operate a pattern swap. So for instance we would need an honesty system but I could loan a pattern I have finished with to someone, they could knit up the garment say using non kit and perhaps cheaper yarn and then I could get my pattern back. No law broken


This would work and be legal as long as you didn't keep a copy at home while your origianl was loaned, or the person you loaned it to doesn't keep a copy after she's sent it back. Essentially, only one person at a time can legally be using the pattern.

I have to say that I am quite impressed at how civil and informative this thread has been. Usually I cringe whenever the "C" word get mentioned on a knitting forum beucase it invariably gets heated. Brava to all of the wonderful ladies here who have kept it nice and friendly!

And of course, now I have to put my 2 cents in, and don the designer's hat ;) I completely understand the desire to keep costs down because we all know that knitting can be a serious budget-buster. But I'd like to gentlry remind y'all that designers make their living in writing patterns. If everyone were to go out of their way to avoid having to pay for a pattern or a book, then the designers won't be making a very good living. Soon, they'll all move on to other, less intense and more profitable, work. (I already know several extrememely talented deisngers who were so frustrated by copyright issues and such that they stopped writing patterns for sale at all) The end result is that beautiful patterns won't be as readily available, and that would be a real shame for our community. So, I encourage everyone to look at patterns and books as not just a dispensable tool, one that you can borrow from a neighbor at whim, but more as an integral part of your knitting endeavors, worthy of respect in their own right for the creativity, hard work and ingenuity that went into creating them :)

Theresa, knit-at-home mama to AJ, Ethan, MacGregor & my biggest baby:
http://www.littleturtleknits.com
Random Musings from a Knitterly Mind: http://www.littleturtleknits.com/blog/
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technorhetor@gmail.com


Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  11:53:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit technorhetor@gmail.com's Homepage Send technorhetor@gmail.com a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BessH

Well, I don't run the Rappahannock Library, but I do run the Essex Public Library in Tappahannock, of Michael Moore movie fame. Fair use allows you to copy one pattern from a library book and knit the item for your personal (or gift) use, but not to sell.

A much murkier issue is: "for educational purposes" and the question: "Is it permissable to photocopy the instructions for a crocheted steek from a library book and hand it out to your students."

The knowledge is not copywrited, but the wording is - so in my case, I always rewrite the information "IN MY OWN WORDS" a la 6th grade research papers.



Bess
http://likethequeen.blogspot.com

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technorhetor@gmail.com


Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  11:57:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit technorhetor@gmail.com's Homepage Send technorhetor@gmail.com a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BessH


A much murkier issue is: "for educational purposes" and the question: "Is it permissable to photocopy the instructions for a crocheted steek from a library book and hand it out to your students."



The law states that for educational purposes you can use up to 5% of the text for distribution to students without copyright infringement. This is something that gets strictly followed, especially at the university level. Anything over 5% and you must pay copyright fees. You can find out the fees per page/pattern by contacting the publisher (who owns copyright).
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chick with sticks
New Pal

7 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  12:03:24 PM  Show Profile Send chick with sticks a Private Message
RachaelKnitter: Thanks sooo much for that web site. That is VERY, VERY helpful! Definetly a perminant bookmark.
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kipper38@msn.com
New Pal

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  12:08:18 PM  Show Profile Send kipper38@msn.com a Private Message
I agree that copying for personal use is what I would do. Copying to sell or to distribute to others would be a no-no.
However, sharing your source would be OK, giving others a chance to review the book and patterns therein.
Barb
Mesa, AZ

Knittin'Again!
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BB in NJ
Chatty Knitter

USA
289 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  12:33:16 PM  Show Profile Send BB in NJ a Private Message
Whoa, I always photocopy charts from mags I own, to blow them up and make them easier to read. Some of my knitting books recommend that!
I'm med school faculty/scientist and I routinely photocopy journal articles for my professional use--that is allow. What is not allowed is for me to reproduce in a second journal the identical picture/figure/table without obtaining permission from the first-- that constitutes a violation of copyright law. So I would think that copying a pattern or 2 from a library book is OK, if I can copy articles from library journals.

Rather be knitting......
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cableready
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
386 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  12:59:47 PM  Show Profile Send cableready a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Littleturtlemama

But I'd like to gentlry remind y'all that designers make their living in writing patterns. If everyone were to go out of their way to avoid having to pay for a pattern or a book, then the designers won't be making a very good living. Soon, they'll all move on to other, less intense and more profitable, work.


Thanks for posting this, Theresa. I do think this is really the meat of this issue. We need to support the designers -

Pamela
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cmele@cogeco.ca
New Pal

13 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  1:40:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit cmele@cogeco.ca's Homepage Send cmele@cogeco.ca a Private Message
Why are the patterns in the books at the libraries? If we aren't meant to knit from the patterns...why don't they just put pictures in the books of items you can knit?
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chick with sticks
New Pal

7 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2005 :  2:51:00 PM  Show Profile Send chick with sticks a Private Message
I have desgined some patterns and sold them to one of the larger yarn manufactures. Just for the record, I was paid one flat fee and make absolutely nothing on each pattern that they sell. I don't know if that is how all the yarn companies reimburse their designers, but that has been my experience with designing/selling patterns.
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