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Clara
queen bee
USA
4063 Posts |
 Posted - 11/17/2002 : 4:36:42 PM
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First, the big news: Starting with its February 2003 issue, KnitNet will be published six times a year and be only available to paid subscribers. Fees are between $12 and $25 depending on whether or not you wish to receive their end-of-year CD (which contains all that year's contents).
But I'm actually posting about something else in the latest issue. It's a piece about the rise in online knitting information. For reference, the original URL is:
http://www.knitnet.com/free/page9.htm
In particular, the article states, "Search engines aren't editors — they can't differentiate between an excellent source of advice for beginners like the Craft Yarn Council's learn-to-knit site and an amateur enthusiast's attempts to tell you everything they think they know about knitting."
It continues, "Finding and using information from the Internet can turn out to be the equivalent of drawing your religious or political education from a conversation you overhear on the bus. You might be listening to a theologian or statesman, but it's more likely you're listening to some bozo. Any fool can put up a Web site and dole out advice, including knitting instruction. Worse, that same fool can publish patterns guaranteed to waste your time and money."
These are strong words. Do you feel that they are an accurate take on today's online knitting information? By virtue of its being free, for example, does Knitty.com provide inferior patterns to, say, the February 2003 issue of KnitNet?
Clara
Your friendly Knitter's Review publisher and
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Atavistic
Permanent Resident
Republic of Korea
6548 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 5:59:15 PM
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I actually take more issue with:
...[C]hoose your online teachers based on who they are. It will follow naturally that what they say is worthwhile.
~~
Hmmm. So because the President (any President, really) is President, what the President says is worthwhile? Uh, no, not always (and perhaps almost never).
Sorry, but Logic 101 is in effect here--it does not naturally follow that what they say is worthwhile. (Case in point, perhaps, is the very article/opin piece.)
I learned to knit primarily from books and the internet and guess what--I was able to figure it out. I am a thinking creature and I can tell a poorer quality website from a higher quality website. That is what the author fails to assume.
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident
USA
3347 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 6:00:33 PM
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Okay, so, I'm most interested in the theology analogy - does this person actually think knitting is, like, ya know, a religion? There is a Sacred Path to True Knitting Holiness (Why do I suspect this equals Her Path and Paths of Her Friends?) and all others are potential heretics, or at least potential bozos?
If you get knitting information from "some bozo" on the internet, or the bus, or a LYS for that matter, it's either useful to you or not useful. If it's useful and it turns out the results you want, it's not wrong, no matter how many self-proclaimed experts disagree because it's not how THEY do it. And does this person, whoever it is, think that we aren't smart enough to recognize junk when we see it and click on to the next site?
I'm thinking that this attempt to browbeat the unwitting into thinking that the site (which, frankly, never interested me anyway) is so darn special and chock-full of expert advice, it's worth paying for. Whatever.
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Kristin
Seriously Hooked
USA
606 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 6:03:40 PM
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Hmmm...of all the advice, patterns, techniques, etc. that I've found online, I'd have to say that 99% of it has been wonderful. Sure, anyone with a computer can put up information but I think most "bozos" steer clear of knitting.
All of the online patterns I've used have been great and only one of them contained an error. The author of the pattern realized this and e-mailed us the correction and updated her site.
As for advice, yes, sometimes I've seen some poor advice. But really, even in the "real world", I've heard some people in shops give bad advice, too.
In my experience, I find the online advice & patterns to be an excellent reference. I think the patterns on Knitty.com are very comparable to what you get in a traditional magazine. I prefer doing things online because I'm an "I want it now" person, so it suits me just fine!
Just my 
--Kristin |
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ms_little
Warming Up
Australia
61 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 7:35:35 PM
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Hi all - when I read that article in Knitnet I was somewhat surprised and taken aback by what I see as an attack on contributors to a vibrant and diverse online knitting community. Sure, there are sites of varying quality out there but most online users are savvy enough to work out which are the good ones. I can see that perhaps this article was contrived to sell the subscription idea to readers but the Knitnet editors should be focusing on what Knitnet offers instead of trashing their 'competitors'.
To answer Clara's questions, I feel that the quality of online information is extremely good in general. I have learnt many techniques online and doubt I would have progressed my knitting skills very far without ready access to such valuable information.
Knitty.com (which I loved!) is targeting a very different audience to Knitnet. I enjoy both but for different reasons. Knitty.com may be free, but the editor put in a lot of effort to ensure the quality of the initial issue. Just check out her blog and you will see her dedication in putting together that issue!
I would hate to see the cameraderie and mutual support in the online knitting world diminished by a few unkind comments.
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lemons
Permanent Resident
1685 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2002 : 10:29:53 PM
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I may get crucified for saying this, but - good grief, this is just knitting. Wrong information can be annoying, and frustrating, and it may even cost us some hard-earned bucks. But it's just KNITTING. It's not a matter of life and death. You want scary sites with bad information, go looking for health information on the net. A person could die from some of the wrong info out here on diseases and medication and treatment. Yes, they're definitely overstating things. There's a lot less misinformation on the knitting sites than there are on...gosh, lots of other topics.
lemons of missouri
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wildhorsefarmer
Permanent Resident
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 04:12:29 AM
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Hi All,
I am wondering if KnitNet's opinion on possible bad knitting advice on free web sites is their way of trying to convince us to pay to get their patterns that were once offered for free.
While I have enjoyed an ocasional pattern on KnitNet, I have no desire to pay them now.
It always bothered me anyway that they had patterns free for a limited time, then once new ones appeared, previous ones had to be bought in a cd with a lot of other patterns of no interest to the knitter.
Lisa in Oklahoma
Designs for hand knit socks...
New design-
Conservation Lace-a pattern for socks and a scarf
http://www.wildhorsefarmdesigns.com
Photos of socks I have knit..
http://www.picturetrail.com/wildhorsefarmer |
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BessH
Permanent Resident
2986 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 04:24:58 AM
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I read the article (first visit to KnitNet).It sounds like the standard disclaimer we give out at the library when people first sign up to use our Public Access Internet computers. It goes something like - "...only provide a doorway, it is your responsibility to determine the validity and usefulness of the information. " and we add another warning "...don't give out personal information unless you know there is a good reason to do so - If it is to apply to the local community college that is a good reason, but if it is Bubba's Website, it may not be".
It is a generic warning and a bit of legal CYA on the library's part. It is ment more as a warning to parents than anything else. But it is pretty standard fare in the world of internet advice.
It is a curious thing that people frequently value what they pay for more than that which is given to them. The assumption is that what can be priced can be assigned a value. Thus, what has no price must have no value. So again, the KnitNet article was merely restating commonly held beliefs. But the Internet has really thrown this dictum into confusion as people discovered that a public forum allowed an opportunity for enormous sharing. (Think here, ancient Greece and Socrates) There are copious tomes written about the globalization of thought younger people bring to their decision processes because they have had exposure to so many ideas, cultures and styles. And youth, because it has less money than the aged, is always looking for free stuff, so the Internet is still a treasure trove of high quality free information.
Be that as it may, I thought the article was pompous and sanctimonious. and silly. One of the places I look for really unique different, creative, challenging knitting ideas is on the web. Knitting is one of those deceptively simple tasks that allows for enormous creativity. Just as 26 letters give us the Library of Congress, so Knit and Purl (which is just the reverse of Knit) give us everything from garter stitch headbands to lace porch chairs. And I guess I worry about knitting errors less than I do spelling errors. As Lemons said, it's just Knitting, for goodness sake.
I do think it is a low shot to dis free sites instead of promoting the virtues of their favored ones. My mama taught me that was not polite. My own brain figured out it was also usually wrong.
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident
USA
3347 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 04:38:06 AM
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I sure won't crucify you, Lemons - it IS just knitting! If you try something and it doesn't work, nobody's life is ruined, at worst you've wasted some time and money, you chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. That's why I was so amused at the theology analogy used in the article - if we could prove or disprove a religious POV with a skein of yarn and a pair of needles, life would have far fewer big questions! This isn't theology or medicine, it's a HOBBY - nobody's life will be knocked off its tracks by the information on a knitting site.
I also hooted at the childlike faith expressed in those vigilant editors of knitting books, who keep misinformation out of the hands of clueless consumers like us, who might otherwise be led astray. On what planet does this chick live? We've all found plenty of errors in print publications, and entire books of crap get published if someone thinks there's a market for it.
This is all about trying to convince people to pay for the type of information other sites offer for free, and IMHO, it's insulting. If you like the content of the site and think it's worth paying for, you'll pay, you don't need to be treated like a hapless babe in the woods, wandering through a forest of misinformation from knitting "bozos," to be convinced of this. The content should speak for itself.
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chris
Permanent Resident
USA
2416 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 09:57:06 AM
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Funny this should come up. I was at the KnitNet site last week and actually considered signing up and paying for the service. Then I read this article. I was so totally put off by the tone of the article, I decided I definitely would not be subscribing. The tone reminded me distinctly of the attitude I've encountered at the LYS. "Cheapie Susan Bates needles", "shoddy acrylic yarn", that loooong look down their nose when you mention Lion Brand. Sorry, folks, I'll take bozos over snobs any day. Bozos are much more fun!
chris
Keep on knittin', mama, knittin' those blues away! |
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Jane
SustaYning Member
USA
3980 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 11:37:33 AM
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Wow, that article was too much! I have been intrigued by the KnitNet site, but now I think I'll look for "some bozo's" website where I won't be told that I can't possibly know what I'm doing. If I taught myself to knit, then I must be able to figure a few things out!
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e_looped
Seriously Hooked
USA
712 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 3:01:54 PM
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As a person who has some free knitting info on her website, I definitely don't consider myself a "bozo" knitting site. http://erica-lee.org/knit/begknit.html I get a lot of email from people asking for help and also thanking me for that little bit of info that I have supplied to them through my site. I don't expect people to learn from my knitting site, I use it mainly as a supplement to the materials that I hand out in my beginning knitting classes. I've sought out a lot of info online and it's all been free information. I usually know what I'm looking for so my experiences have all been good. I teach at a yarn store and I don't think that any online advice and really replace the advice you get from being face-to-face with other knitters, but if being with other knitters isn't an option for you due to where you live or many of the other things that keep people from being with other knitters face-to-face. I think if you get bad advice from an online site, it's a lot like what someone said earlier, you don't take online health advice as gospel so I say take the information for what it's worth - Advice and not the absolute!
I just read the article after my ranting here. I have to say, I agree with them much less than I did before I read the article. It's almost as if they are saying, unless it's a reputable company giving out knitterly advice, it's as good as your shoe. They seem to say that those knitters that are enthusiasts but don't make money with their knitting website aren't as credible as one you might pay for or are from a big knitting related company. Not everyone can have a book published or being on the national teaching circuit and so those of us who just love knitting and sharing our knitting experiences with other people seem to me to be just as good at knitting advice as someone who requires you to pay for their online knitting advice.
I hope that I made some sense here. I just got on a bit of a roll and kept going with it.
erica :)
(knitgrl is my license plate)
Life is like knitting sometimes it's smooth, sometimes it's bumpy and sometimes it's the ultimate frustration.
http://erica-lee.org/crafts.html |
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mbmoody
Gabber Extraordinaire
583 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 3:37:12 PM
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Since Knitnet has been free, I doubt they're denigrating all free webstites. I've heard a number of people express the same opinion about the internet in general, regardless of whether the site requires a fee. If you have little experience against which to measure the information, and know nothing about the publisher, it's hard to evaluate a website. For that matter, it's hard to evaluate reviews on Amazon or epinion. I'll probably pay for a month's access to Consumer Reports when I buy a DVD player, because they have a reputation for reliable advice and explain the basis of their opinions. I can't say the same for other sources of information on the web.
Mary |
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Atavistic
Permanent Resident
Republic of Korea
6548 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 7:44:52 PM
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quote:
{Snipped about books} On what planet does this chick live?
Speaking of--I don't see a byline. I want to know who wrote this article. Am I just missing the byline? If I'm supposed to "choose [my] online teachers based on who they are [because i]t will follow naturally that what they say is worthwhile" then I would like to know who is giving me this advice. Nobody? OK, I guess their opinion is worth nothing.
Amanda (see, a byline!)
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fmarrs
Permanent resident and our guardian angel
USA
9776 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2002 : 10:07:32 PM
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Oh my, Knitnet has published a few of my simple, no nonsense patterns. I wonder if they realized they were from a self taught knitter with no real knittin' larnin' LOL
When I see an article like this one, I figure it was written by someone trying to make a living with her knitting and feeling the need to justify herself. Relax, honey, I know a few stuck up yarn shops where you will fit right in.
fran
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident
USA
3347 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2002 : 03:05:13 AM
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quote:
Oh my, Knitnet has published a few of my simple, no nonsense patterns. I wonder if they realized they were from a self taught knitter with no real knittin' larnin' LOL
Oh, but once they published your patterns, they validated you (because you know, you ain't nobody until somebody validates you)! Indeed, you were just another knitting bozo until they accepted your patterns for publication, then suddenly, with a wave of their wand <knitting needle> you became A Real Knitter! 
Oh, wait, was this during their free site period? Hmmm, that may be a loophole which invalidates your validation - because now their policy seems to be that any fool can put up a free website and post patterns. Perhaps the patterns were "foolish" when they were free, but if you pay, they're not? It's all just too confusing for me! I'm just a dumb lil' knitter, ya know! I better subscribe, so I'll know what to think!
Tongue firmly in cheek here....
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Clara
queen bee
USA
4063 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 08:18:45 AM
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You guys are totally cracking me up! But you're also raising my spirits and providing serious encouragement, too.
First, I do applaud KnitNet's decision to try and raise more revenue from its online publication. As an online pub myself, I'll obviously be watching this closely.
BUT....
I am extremely concerned to see any publication suggest that the broader online knitting community is nothing more than a gathering of amateur enthusiasts, fools, and bozos doling out advice. In my opinion, the words belonged in a frustrated email to a friend, not in the e-pages of a publication trying to maintain a professional reputation.
I am still fresh from the KR retreat where I witnessed firsthand the amazing power of peers coming together to teach one another. It wasn't an issue of who had the bigger publishing contract or who had earned the most money from knitting, it was purely about the love of the craft.
I found more wisdom and encouragement and creative stimulation and sense of community than I've felt for a long, long, long time. For me, this is what knitting is all about.
Sure, online information should be questioned, as should any information, regardless of where it came from or how much you paid for it. Knitterly information is to be found everywhere - from friends, shop owners, librarians, books, magazines, Web sites, and yes, even on public transportation.
Clara
Your friendly Knitter's Review publisher
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Valerie
New Pal
19 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 07:29:35 AM
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Hi Clara and all...I'm finally chiming in on this topic. Actually the KnitNet "op ed" article popped up at a time when I have been ruminating about the fiber publications...especially the knitting ones but the spinning 'one' too.
After being insulted by the KnitNet article, I realized that it puts into words the frustration that is evident in the print knitting publications. I include KnitNet in this because they have really just taken the print format and placed it on the web. If you look at most of the mags coming out in the past year, they don't hang together. It's hard to tell the advertisements from the designs offered. And you see big spreads on what was a hot topic on the internet 9 months before. Meanwhile, those of us who are on the 'net have moved on to our current topic(s) of discussion.
All print media are faced with the challenges that the world wide web and the internet put forth. It has just become glaringly evident in the fiber ones. If you have ever looked at submission guidelines for the the mags., they are planning 9 months in advance. In contrast, if I want to put a design up on the web, I can start the same day I do my gauge swatch. So lag time is one challenge.
Another challenge is what I'll call the grassroots effect. When we communicate via the 'net, it's a two way (or more)communication. There is almost instant feedback..yea' or nay. The conversation about knitting and fiber is modified along the way by that interaction. I believe that the internet has a great deal to do with the current knitting "boom". The current print magazine structure is primarily a top down communication structure. It has difficulty responding to the feedback that we consumers would like to feed up to it.
And finally...even tho' we pay some hefty subscription fees, the pubs are primarily funded by their advertisers. It's just a fact of life in a market economy. Margins are decreasing...everything is speeding up...most of the yarns are manufactured offshore where labor is cheap...and the message is sell, sell, sell this yarn. And here we sit...with 2 sticks and some string, plugging away one stitch at a time.
My take is that the pubs. are more about selling yarn than creating with it. Remember that design I was putting up on the web (above)? I can tell you specifications for the yarn and you can look in your stash and see what will correspond. Since I'm doing it as an individual, I don't have to push Brand X yarn at you.
I long for the mags. to step up to the challenge, tho' I can't claim to know what the answers are. Handwoven magazine is using the internet to enhance the magazine by providing supplements to articles that appeared in the print publication. That seems to be a healthy innovation. All I know is that when I pay $18 to $24 for a magazine subscription, I would like to find more in the magazine than I find in the catalogues that come to me for free (because they bought the mailing list from the magazine).
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marfa
Permanent Resident
USA
1775 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 4:21:50 PM
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How do.
There is a good deal of food for thought in the topic & the responses. The KnitNet writer has opened up a wave of feeling & responses among the Forum readers & I would guess, the KnitNet readers. If the feeling that free = bad, blah & duh, the author's experience does not match mine. If it a subtle thought that the readers should pay for what has been free & thus, it's worth more, it misses the mark.
Of course we all have to put the vegetables on the table & the cat food in the bowl. Taking a swipe at others to advance oneself does not work.
What is that expression...1/2 of the doctors are in the lower half of their class in medical school  . AS someone said, even the pros are human & make boo boos.
Clara is on the mark re the retreat & the vast amount of knowledge in the room. Whew, it was breath taking.
For me, the Web represents another mode of learning & hopefully, teaching.
I heard someone use this analogy today. Horses love their homes, the barn, & apparently it's not a good idea to canter them into the area near the barn as they may rush into the barn. When a fire happens in a barn, the only way to get the horses out of the barn & to safety is to blindfold them or they won't leave. My point ? None of us are wearing blindfolds here, we all have brains & we're using them. (We're in the Forum. aren't we?!  )
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident
USA
3347 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 6:46:53 PM
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quote:
Of course we all have to put the vegetables on the table & the cat food in the bowl. Taking a swipe at others to advance oneself does not work.
Precisely. I think that's the problem here - the writer is using the online medium to bash others in the same medium. The free information was fine when this service was providing it, now that they're going to subscription, suddenly that free information is coming from "bozos?" Uh-huh. This isn't print vs. internet - I do have sympathy for the print medium struggling to keep up with the electronic competition. This is "pay a premium" content provider vs. free. This is more like, "Do you pay for an ISP AND subscribe to AOL, or ditch AOL?" AOL isn't winning that one.
When a formerly free content provider decides to start charging, and at the same times takes cheap shots at the free information available, it makes a rather bad impression - to put it mildly. I very rarely visited the site and it made no impression on me, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I put cat food in the dishes via a day job. Most knitters do. If you're putting something online your choices are to eat the cost or find sponsors and other ways to pay. Cheap shots at the competition do not encourage anyone to subscribe, period - especially when the vast majority of the readership considers knitting to be a hobby (even if an obsessive one) and has to pay for it by other means. Judging by the responses here, it has the opposite effect. Bigtime.
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Valerie
New Pal
19 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2002 : 09:15:21 AM
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If you have recently visited the KnitNet site to read the referenced article, you must be wondering what all of the flap is about. Since our discussion, that article has been edited. No longer will you find reference to "fools" and "bozo's". But the paragraph about publications having editors to serve a purpose is still there. (giggle)
All of you on this discussion and other discussions on the 'net have proved the point. The very act of open discussion via the internet serves as a moderator for discourse....and sometimes even serves as an editor in absentia.
Irony is great humor!!
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