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RobA
Permanent Resident
2373 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2005 : 08:03:24 AM
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Hi,
A couple of weeks ago (or more), when discussing the latest Knitters magazine on the magazine forum, someone wrote that they felt Knitters issues no longer presented "knitterly" work or a "knitterly" feel.
I thought that was interesting, and responded, asking about the concept of knitterly-ness. The conversation didn't continue though. So I have been thinking on my own about the concept.
I did think, for example, that the techniques article seemed knitterly, since it provided instruction on how to use double knitting techniques to create beautifully finished edges and collars. So knitterliness appears to mean -- in my understanding -- attention to technique. And I would then agree that most of the magazines are not paying attention, at least in their patterns, when sweaters are minimally finished, have no shaping, leave knitters with rolling edges, etc.
Other thoughts on knitterliness?
Rob http://roberta.typepad.com/robknits/ |
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fillyjonk
Permanent Resident
1127 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 08:47:01 AM
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Interesting idea.
For me, knitterliness means an attention to the craft - to the skill involved in making the item and not just in the item itself. (But I may be biased in that I am a "process" knitter rather than a "product" knitter). I also think it includes a component of using the right technique and not just the easiest technique. (There are cases where the easiest technique MIGHT be the right one, but not always). It's kind of like writing - some authors write with attention to detail, make an effort to be grammatically correct (or if they "break the rules," having a valid reason for doing so), using complex and appropriate vocabulary, etc., etc. And some authors just slop things together (I am exaggerating a bit here), simply for the sake of "getting the book out."
I think for me it's an attention to, and an appreciation for, detail. An unwillingness to sort of shrug and say, "Oh, that's good enough, no one really knits any more so no one will notice the corners I cut."
It is like this: years ago, when I was a doll collector, I remember an article in a collector's magazine about some church figures that had been made. One was of Mary as the Queen of the Universe (this was in a Catholic church, naturally). The nuns who outfitted the figure of Mary spent a lot of time and trouble making appropriate and detailed undergarments with lace, embroidery, etc. All they really "needed" to put on the figure (for the gown to hang right) was something like a slip, but instead they chose to make as-perfect-as-possible miniature undergarments. Even though no one would be looking at the figure that closely. They did it, not because anyone else would know, the article's author said, but because they would know and God would know, and that was important to them.
I've always liked that story and I remember it when I find myself tempted to do a sloppy job on something that "won't show." |
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kekokat
Seriously Hooked
USA
845 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 4:42:46 PM
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I think this is a very interesting topic. I'm in agreement with both of you on your various points.
I've been moonlighting at a very good yarn store where the proprietors really know how to knit - are they knitterly? - they know the history, they know techniques to finish something beautifully, they worship fiber, etc. I feel like I'm learning at the feet of the masters. They are not arrogant or trying to be superior. They are sharing their knowledge - no, perhaps experience and sage advice and wisdom is more apt - and it makes a difference. I've learned so much. I too am a process knitter and not a big detail person. But once I learned some "new" techniques, I was sold on the satisfaction of wonderful results.
On another angle, I love to read the magazine Threads - it's a sewing mag. I can sew and I'm adequate at it at best, but I don't do it much and I'm not a sewing zealot. I pour over the articles about how to put in a sleeve using some technique or another and I'm fascinated. I'm never ever going to do it, but I find it very interesting, credible and satisfying.
So, knitterliness (next to godliness (o:) is a good thing. IMHO! |
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knittingbaglady
Permanent Resident
USA
1207 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 06:02:47 AM
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This is interesting. I was asked the other day about Native Vermonters. What does it really mean? And I think that Vermont, as much as I love it, has a certain kind of pressure to be a certain way. Native Vermonters simply know who and what they are. Other folks for various reasons come to the state and are trying to find the proper identity to fit in.
So for me, true Knitterliness is the old sage woman who's made mittens and socks (and more) all her life for her loved ones. Without fluff, and without great praise...just the quiet doing. Like the old Native farmers...
And she was willing to share her supplies and wisdom with whoever happened to want them...
For me, that's true knitterliness...
Martha.
http://www.greenmountainknittingbags.com/ |
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RobA
Permanent Resident
2373 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 09:32:59 AM
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Speaking of Threads, they used to include knitting, and did some great, knitterly, articles. There are a couple of books out that reproduce those articles.
Rob http://roberta.typepad.com/robknits/ |
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fmarrs
Guardian angel
USA
9776 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 1:38:17 PM
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For one example, some knitting magazines show pictures of the knitted item so you can see what it is. Others show dramatic models in weird poses with the garment pulled every which way. some may say they are better pictures but I prefer to see the knitted garment instead of a staged pose. Some are so posed that you can't tell what the garment really is.
fran
http://www.geocities.com/martian_mischief/ |
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chellethinques
Permanent Resident
USA
1431 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 8:15:04 PM
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| I think in terms of pattern writing, too, the quality we look for is that of fulfilling a need, or showcasing a fiber, or a technique...not just selling the pattern, or selling the yarn, or even trying to capitalize on the "trendiness" of knitting! (I'm reminded of an "article" in Knit It! that was merely about garter stitch scarves, but in various Lion Brand yarns. Eh.) |
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kekokat
Seriously Hooked
USA
845 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 7:36:58 PM
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| Oh yes, I love the photos of seemingly gorgeous sweaters but with the model having her very long hair hanging down in front of the sweater on both sides so that you can't see what kind of sleeves it has. Brilliant. |
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Schleppenheimer
Seriously Hooked
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 8:26:11 PM
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Martha --
Such a great explanation of "knitterliness" using native Vermonters as an example. I lived in Western Massachusetts in the 80's, and being a California native (land of lots of style but not much substance -- sorry, all you California natives) I was fascinated with Vermont and it's traditions, unassuming people, and incredible stubborn drive to keep Vermont as pristine as possible (i.e., the one and only state, I think, to not have a Walmart within its borders).
I like this concept of knitterliness -- it makes me think of trying to promote knitting as an art while remaining true to its traditions and history.
Kris |
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MJM
Chatty Knitter
Canada
293 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 9:34:15 PM
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This is interesting. I agree on all the above points. I just wanted to add that I'm feeling the knitting mags have started to gear themselves into fashion mags as opposed to knitting mags, with the exception of InKnitters, IMO. I personally would love to see more mags that focus not only on patterns but also designing, technique, fibre, etc...this for me, would bring back the "knitterly" feel because for me, knitting is more than just fashion.
MJM
View My Blog at:
http://alwayscastingon.blogspot.com/
View My Album at:
http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/alwayscastingon/my_photos
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fillyjonk
Permanent Resident
1127 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 08:12:36 AM
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Yes. "celebrating the traditions" as opposed to just "following the trends."
I've said before that one of the reasons that I knit (and quilt, and crochet, and sew, and garden, and and and) is that it is something that connects me to my forebears. It is something that my grandmother would recognize, and my great-grandmother, and her great-grandmother. I like that imagining, that there is a long chain of knitters going back in my family, back to the first time someone from that part of the world knitted. (My mother knits, and my grandmother knit, and my great-grandmother knit. I don't know back farther than that but I assume because they were primarily farmwomen with large families, and they came from/lived in areas that tended to be cold in the winter and raise sheep, that they were knitters).
There is so much in the modern world that seems rootless to me that I find it tremendously comforting to take part in something that has such deep roots.
I also like the image of the "wise knitting woman" who does what she does without fanfare, and who passes her skills and knowledge on to others. (I've always said I never feared getting older; I wanted to be a "wise woman" who could share what I had learned about life with others). |
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RobA
Permanent Resident
2373 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 1:56:11 PM
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quote:
So for me, true Knitterliness is the old sage woman who's made mittens and socks (and more) all her life for her loved ones. Without fluff, and without great praise...just the quiet doing.
While I understand the feeling of roots that this image creates, I am not sure it represents knitterliness to me. It would depend on how you did that work, wouldn't it? I don't want to romanticize the amount of work this was -- let's remember that it was work done after full days of heavy household or farm or factory work, or before and after school. And it might have been done by rote, without much joy or attention, often with resentment, simply something that had to be done if everyone was going to have socks to wear to work. Certainly some of those knitters represent knitterliness to me -- the ones who could look at a sock knit the same way for generations and come up with a different heel, the ones who created a little joy and beauty in a tough life with their knitting, and who took pride in neat finishes.
Rob http://roberta.typepad.com/robknits/ |
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Atavistic
Permanent Resident
6604 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 2:02:17 PM
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I don't knit to connect with the mythological woman who knit socks. I don't knit to follow trends. I don't knit to buck trends. I pay attention to details and shaping but am not afraid to do what works for me (k3tog in lace? No, I will pull the third stitch over the first two, then k2tog). If people want to learn from me, fine, but I'm not in the mood to share with everyone just to "save a [not really at all but it sounds good when we say it] daying craft."
So I don't know what kniterliness is.
Amanda
"Is that my Not-Mine Sweater? Whoever gets that Not-Mine Sweater is very lucky." |
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Renee77
Chatty Knitter
261 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 2:06:39 PM
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Knitter's magazine has changed so dramatically over the past five years, that it's hard to believe it's the same magazine. If any of you could have a look at the issues from the late 1990's, when Nancy Thomas was the editor, it's easy to see why it was considered so 'knitterly' back then. At least half of each issue had patterns that would be considered for intermediate or advanced knitters, and at least half of the patterns, whatever the skill level, were on the classic side. Plus, each issue would usually have 2-3 in depth articles about techniques, not just one article. It was rare that I missed buying an issue. Nowadays, I'm lucky if I buy one issue a year.
I read the other thread in the 'knitting magazines' forum, and I agree with what one poster said, that the decrease in the 'knitterly' content of Knitter's is due to having Rick Mondragen as the main editor. I took a class from him several years ago at STitches, and I felt like I was taking a class aimed at designing sweaters for drag queens. Frankly, when I look at any recent Knitter's, I feel like I'm looking at designs that any drag queen would gush over.
Though, to be fair, all the knitting magazines have moved in this non-knitterly direction, albeit Knitter's has moved the most of all. And to think, Knitter's came into being 20 years ago, to provide a home for knitters interested in traditional/ethnic forms of knitting, with a heavy emphasis on techniques. |
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PatriciaS
Gabber Extraordinaire
USA
537 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 7:08:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee77
Though, to be fair, all the knitting magazines have moved in this non-knitterly direction, albeit Knitter's has moved the most of all. And to think, Knitter's came into being 20 years ago, to provide a home for knitters interested in traditional/ethnic forms of knitting, with a heavy emphasis on techniques.
I'm kind of surprised there's been no comment (or speculation) on WHY this is so.
Having come BACK to knitting recently (summer 2004), I've been surprised at several things happening in the knitting world and not all of them good -- or at least, a mixed blessing. I think it's WONDERFUL that knitting is going thru an explosion and something of a Renaissance, and I've been impressed with much of the new energy and creativity being infused into the craft by the younger and more eager among us. I'm less amazed and enthused about all the crap novelty yarn, much of it priced at two or three times its value if not more. And less impressed too with a certain inattention or erosion in the quality of some of the patterns and other matters, and the magazines and yarn manufacturers targeting the young-and-hip to the detriment if not exclusion of the people who will be here when rthe fad knitters have gone away. I think your complaints about Knitters magazine fits into my scenario -- I know I buy it now and then, but do not usually feel I get my money's worth out of it for the reasons you cite.
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Is there anything more important than knitting? |
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Schleppenheimer
Seriously Hooked
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 06:49:47 AM
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You are really hitting the problem on the head -- these knitting magazines pretty much have to cater to those who will actually buy the magazines, and that must be the newer knitters who actually like all of the novelty yarn.
I hadn't realized that other people do what I do -- which is, look at the magazines, and if there's nothing I'm going to knit in the magazine, I don't buy the magazine. I never subscribe, because all too often the designs are too outrageous. SOMEONE must be buying these magazines, so it must be other than those of us who stick to the more classic designs.
Kris |
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honeybee33
Warming Up
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 07:54:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee77
I read the other thread in the 'knitting magazines' forum, and I agree with what one poster said, that the decrease in the 'knitterly' content of Knitter's is due to having Rick Mondragen as the main editor. I took a class from him several years ago at STitches, and I felt like I was taking a class aimed at designing sweaters for drag queens. Frankly, when I look at any recent Knitter's, I feel like I'm looking at designs that any drag queen would gush over.
okay, just wanted to "call a spade a spade" here ...
This statement felt really homophobic to me.
I agree with you that the decline in the knitterliness of Knitter's is due to Mondragon's reign as editor, because I don't think he has a "knitterly" sense about his or anyone else's work. And I also personally have never cared for his aesthetic taste. But to characterize it in this way is classless.
~ hb33, just another queer knitter who really doesn't want to see derogatory comments about anyone's sexual orientation, shrouded or otherwise ~ |
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Renee77
Chatty Knitter
261 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 7:44:36 PM
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I have nothing against drag queens, or homosexuals; two of my dear friends are lesbians.
I am refering to the outrageous, loud, over-the-top clothes that drag queens wear, which they wear to be noticed. Think RuPaul or Divine.
Honestly, I like watching drag queens, they have a certain sense of style, it's just not my own.
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honeybee33
Warming Up
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 08:08:46 AM
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yes, and some of my best friends are Black. [whatever]
I knew exactly what you meant; it was very clear from your post - I reiterated what you were saying in my response, only omitting your derogatory reference. The bias in your choice of terminology was very subtle, but nevertheless inherent.
~ hb33 ~ |
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RachelKnitter
Permanent Resident
USA
2995 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 08:50:47 AM
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First, an introduction, so that I won't get the dreaded eye-rolling icon. I am a bisexual woman active in the gay & lesbian community for many years. Of my adult relationships, all of the serious ones but one were with women and I worked full-time for a gay & lesbian bookstore for several years. I've interacted with the closeted, the out, the flaming and the butch. Yes, for full disclosure, the love of my life turned out to be male, and I was just as surprised about that as anyone. But I have walked down the street holding hands with a woman. I've been called names, I've had firecrackers thrown at my house. I do know what homophobia is like. I've stared it in the face far too many times. In fact, being married to a man, I know what it's like to be ostracized by *both* sides.
I see nothing offensive about what Renee said. To me, there is a difference between a drag queen and a cross-dresser. A drag queen is a performer, and a huge part of that performance is to wear over-the-top oufits. Let's face it, drag queens are the only ones who can get away with wearing what they wear, and I think most drag queens would proudly agree with me on that. You need that special something to pull it off, and most importantly, you need to be on stage with a spotlight and some disco blasting on the speakers.
In my opinion, there's too much real homophobia in the world to harp on little games of semantics with well-meaning people.
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You are about to be told one more time that you are America’s most valuable natural resource. Have you seen what they do to valuable natural resources? -Utah Phillips, addressing a group of young people |
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RoseByAny
Permanent Resident
USA
12598 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 08:57:40 AM
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... it was no more homophobic than the assumption that reference to drag queens is a reference to a gay man. Heterosexuals cross dress too. They are not mutually exclusive.
"Choose your friends by their character and your socks by their color. Choosing your socks by their character makes no sense, and choosing your friends by their color is unthinkable."
http://RoseByAny.BlogSpot.Com |
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