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 Knit in row below (front -- back of stitch)
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RoseM
Permanent Resident

Canada
1898 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  2:12:30 PM  Show Profile Send RoseM a Private Message
Here's what's puzzling me with these increases:

"L1 - insert right needle into front of next st in row below and K this st, then K st above". Does inserting needle into the front mean knitting into the 'hole' of the stitch below, or just knitting into one of the 'loops' whether it be the left or right?

"BL1 - insert right needle into back of next st in row below (from the top down into the purl loop sitting behind the st) and K this st, then K st above". The 'top down' and 'back' have me clueless [crazy].

Thanks
RoseM


of troy
Permanent Resident

USA
2474 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  3:01:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit of troy's Homepage Send of troy a Private Message
when you knit into row below, you are making what is sometimes called a "brioche" stitch. (this type stitch can be used in a number of different ways, plain, ribbing, sead stitch,etc)

do you know brioche bread? its a round loaf, (or mini loaf made in a muffin pan) with a top hat (--the raw dough has a finger hole poked into center, and a small lump of dough is made into a cone with cap shape,(think of the silotette of an icecream cone) stuffed into the center hole. when it rises and it baked, it looks like a mini crown on the bread(or like a head on round ball! (it is a loaf ontop of another loaf!)

Now back to knitting--a brioche stitch is a stitch with another stitch sitting ontop of it(see now where it gets its name?)

If you knit into the stitch below
(Put the right hand needle into not the next stitch on the LEFT needle but the one directly below, wrap yarn, pull out a new stitch onto right needle and let stitch above fall off left needle.

the stitch above, will, of course 'undo' (run or ladder) and you'll end up with a stitch with 'wings' made from the undone stitch. but the undone stitch will only be able to 'run' one stitch down (the knit in stitch below will 'stop' the run)
--------------------------------------------------------------

another way to do this is: on the previous row (purl side) slip 1 and make a Yarn over (if you did this every other stitch, it would seem like a huge number of increases!)

On Knit side, when you come to slipped stitch, KNIT IT TOGETHER with YO. --this Knitting 2 tog (slip stitch +YO) would bring your stitch count back to original number.

i have NEVER Seen a twisted brioche stitch(doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just i haven't seen it)so if your stitch is twisting, i think you might be doing it wrong.

it is confusing, since the abreviation K1B(knit 1 below) is sometime used for K1tbl (Knit 1 through back Loop)--its important to read the notes, and understand WHAT the designer means when they say K1B.

its impossible to know what you should be doing with out:
seeing the guide to stitch abreviations
and
seeing the directions

(it would help too, to see a photo of what the finished stitch is supposed to look like, and what your stitch looks like!)

if the pattern is in a book or magazine let us know which book, which magazine, and which pattern, (ditto if it is on line,(for free) even if its not free, how about a link to an image?

brioche stitch (think of this a "single" Knit into one below)
can be combined with knits and purl to make specific 'fabrics'.

In plain ribbing, the broiche stitch can be replace all the knits on one side( K1, P1, *K1B, P1) with a plain K1, P1 for 'back side' or both sides of the ribbing can be have the K's replaced with K1B--
These combinations of ribbing with broiche stitches has several different names (for the fabric that results) the names include: "fisherman' rib" or "shaker rib" (as well as Brioce rib!)

and the same process can de done with a sead stitch pattern (all the knits on one side become K1B) Brioche can also be done on stocking knit (every other stitch) the fabric is then called the beehive stitch.

this aspect of knitting is confusing.. 'stitch' is used for single stitch and for 'fabric result' of simple or comples pattern--
even Knit stitch (every stitch every row) has a 'name' for the fabric (and the name is garter 'stitch')


does your pattern have a 'fabric name' --you know something like 'sweater in fisherman's rib" or "sweater in beehive stitch"?





See my photo albums of knitting. http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/oftroy/
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident

USA
3363 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  3:25:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit CatherineM's Homepage Send CatherineM a Private Message
Yay Helen - I almost replied to the first part, I'm doing a shawl now that calls for knitting two stitches below, and I love the result, but I'm stumped on the second part - how do you knit into the back of the stitch below? I tried to visualize it and my brain got a cramp.

Catherine
http://www.yorkiedog.blogspot.com
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RoseM
Permanent Resident

Canada
1898 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  3:28:56 PM  Show Profile Send RoseM a Private Message
You had me at 'bread' dear oftroy! Yes I know brioche bread ... but back to knitting.

I'm familiar with knitting into the stitch below. Have done this without knitting the stitch above, so it 'ladders' as you describe.

However with these stitches/stich patterns, I'm going to be knitting into below stitches as well as the stitch directly above. That I get.

It's "how" to knit into the below stitch to accomplish the L1 and BL1.
i.e. L1 (see above) - is that just into the 'hole' of the below stitch. I'm thinking yes.

But then with the BL1 (see above) I'm lost - especially about the 'purl loop sitting behind the stitch'.

The pullover pattern is Rowan St. Mawes http://www.laughinghens.com/knitting-pattern-page.asp?patternpageid=3629 -- the fabric has a zig zag pattern.

Thanks for being so helpful.

RoseM
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azknitter
Honorary Angel

5539 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  3:42:53 PM  Show Profile Send azknitter a Private Message
quote:
[i]Originally posted by of troy
do you know brioche bread? its a round loaf, (or mini loaf made in a muffin pan) with a top hat (--the raw dough has a finger hole poked into center, and a small lump of dough is made into a cone with cap shape,(think of the silotette of an icecream cone) stuffed into the center hole. when it rises and it baked, it looks like a mini crown on the bread(or like a head on round ball! (it is a loaf ontop of another loaf!)

Now back to knitting--

[:00][:00][:00]....Feelin' your oats today Helen?

Trish
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident

USA
3363 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  3:52:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit CatherineM's Homepage Send CatherineM a Private Message
Now, now, Helen used a very tame bread analogy there, whatever are you implying?

Catherine
http://www.yorkiedog.blogspot.com
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of troy
Permanent Resident

USA
2474 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  7:05:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit of troy's Homepage Send of troy a Private Message
OH, you are doing a lifted increase! Love that increase--

Ok to increase, (L1) you knit into stitch below (into the V--as if picking up a stitch)This is a lifted increase.

then knit into stitch on the needle.
(you might be able to find on line tutorial about a lifted increase. It is anne modisett's favorite increase, so i would look at her site even before i googled. Its an almost invisible increase.

(by the way, that should be L1R(ight)since it also comes in a left hand mode (that is way harder, called L1L(eft))

OK second one. (back lift 1)

have the knit side facing you ... pull the knitting close to you so you can look over the needles, and see the purl side.

now take the right needle, and pivot it to the back of work, and "Lift" the top of the stitch below. because you are looking at the purl side, what you see is loops, NOT V's. stick right needle into top of the purl loop, of the stitch below (Stick the needle into this top loop as if knit.)

(You are going to knit into the top of this stitch.)
wrap yarn and pull out this stitch (an increase)
then pivot the right needle to the front of the work, and knit the next stitch normally.

Does that help?

i don't think i have anything in my knitting that uses the L1B, but i will look for an example of the L1 (truthfully, i often use them in pairs, (L1(r) knit a stitch, L1(l)...

lift one is not a common increase, but you should be able to find some photo's somewhere on line!

See my photo albums of knitting. http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/oftroy/
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RoseM
Permanent Resident

Canada
1898 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  8:59:43 PM  Show Profile Send RoseM a Private Message
Thanks so much Helen. I can follow your instructions and it seems to work and not look strange. I'll have to do a few inches to see if I get the nice zigzag pattern happening.

I did google (always my first try before asking here) - but seemed to find only descriptions of what L1 and BL1 are -- not exactly where to put the needle. You gave the 'visual' I was looking for.

Much appreciated,
RoseM
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Katinka
New Pal

45 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  09:08:46 AM  Show Profile Send Katinka a Private Message
Helen, you are obviously an expert on brioche stitches! Will you please expand a bit on the stitch you called "beehive stitch". I am doing it right now in the second way you described (knitting slipped stitch with the Yarn over). And I cannot figure out how to make increases and decreases. All my attempts look absolutely miserable! Please tell me how to tackle the problem. I'm afraid the lifted increase you mentioned is not for me because I am not knitting in the row below. Am I right? Should I switch to the row-below method if I want to make increases/decreases? Or there is some way out for Slip+YO-method?
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of troy
Permanent Resident

USA
2474 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  09:44:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit of troy's Homepage Send of troy a Private Message
increases, decreases, and picking up dropped stitches in brioche is not something i can explain!

see if you can find a copy of The Big Book of Knitting, by Katerina Bush. she has great color photo's and detailed directions! (i learn from the best--that why i come here, and why i own so many knitting books.

katerina-or the translater-- uses the term shaker knitting (a common name for brioche rib)

See my photo albums of knitting. http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/oftroy/
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Carolyn
Chatty Knitter

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  11:21:07 AM  Show Profile Send Carolyn a Private Message
I've noticed that several authors point out that the YO method produces a "richer" result than knitting in the row below, which is sometimes referred to as "fisherman's rib."

Another item of interest: Elizabeth Zimmermann (in Knitting Without Tears, p. 96) stated, "Prime Rib is not suited to circular knitting." (Prime Rib is another name for the Brioche stitch. Yet another name is Shaker Rib.) I have made several Brioche stitch hats in the round. It's perfectly possible, it's easy, and it turns out beautifully!

Try this:

Preparatory rnd: K around
Rnd 1: *K1, SSL 1, rep from * around.
Rnd 2: *SSL 1, P1, rep from * around.
Repeat rnds 1 and 2.

(SSL [shaker slip]: Bring yarn fwd, sl 1 purlwise, take yarn to back, leaving 2 loops on right needle. On next rnd, K or P these 2 loops tog.)

I knit Continental and actually slip and make the YO all at once. Very easy and fast, too!

The most attractive decrease for Brioche stitch is a double decrease like this: Sl next knit st with its extra loop knitwise. K next purl st tog with next knit st and its extra loop. Pass sl st and its extra loop over (2 sts dec).

All this, of course, has nothing to do with making lifted increases, which is what the original post was all about.

Carolyn
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Carolyn
Chatty Knitter

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  11:26:47 AM  Show Profile Send Carolyn a Private Message
Oh, and as to picking up dropped stitches - forget about it. It is all but impossible with Brioche st. Best to run a lifeline every now and then so that you can ravel back to it if necessary.
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of troy
Permanent Resident

USA
2474 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  12:19:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit of troy's Homepage Send of troy a Private Message
Re: Another item of interest: Elizabeth Zimmermann (in Knitting Without Tears, p. 96) stated, "Prime Rib is not suited to circular knitting." (Prime Rib is another name for the Brioche stitch. Yet another name is Shaker Rib.) I have made several Brioche stitch hats in the round. It's perfectly possible, it's easy, and it turns out beautifully!


yes well EZ is a wonderful knitter, but she is not the be all and end all of knitting.

(nor am i!) she also dismissed combo knitting
EZ has her way (and she explained her way, and why she had her way, but she didn't, as some people do,(about her) insist her way was the only way, or even the best way, it was just the only way she worked, and the best way for her!

there are lots of thing that can be done that EZ couldn't (or didn't!) do.

See my photo albums of knitting. http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/oftroy/
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Katinka
New Pal

45 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2006 :  11:01:20 AM  Show Profile Send Katinka a Private Message
Thank you, Helen, I will certainly try to get my hands on the book you have recommended. I have a few books but unfortunately the authors didn't dwell on the question of increases/decreases. I looked at your photoes and found them very interesting, especially the tutorials. But I feel that I would like some words accompanying the pictures. Are there any texts about your work somewhere - at the photobucket or elsewhere?

Thank you, Carolyn, for the description of a double decrease. Quite soon I will use it for tapering the sleeves of my brioche cardigan. As for SSL, at first I was stuck but then realised that it's just the way I have been knitting since I went Continental! I used to knit Combination (mostly because the style lets me purl as tight as knit) but I had a lot of problems with "crosslegged" stitches when working in the round. So I turned Continental and many of my woes just dissolved.
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