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hillstreetmama
Permanent Resident

USA
3448 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2011 :  4:54:59 PM  Show Profile Send hillstreetmama a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do you think? Once a week, there's a come-together-and-knit time at the LYS. We've been known to bring adult beverages to share, along with all our projects. Sometimes, we just share stories and laughs. Over the years, a few people would bring along a small child, or two, or three... Sometimes the kids sit at the table with mom - sometimes there is not enough adult seating and we could use the space. Sometimes the children are allowed (by mom) to wander around unsupervised.

My personal feeling is that if the child is knitting, he/she belongs there. If not, the mother should have the child in sight at all times. If an adults comes to knit, the non-knitting child should give up his/her seat to the knitter.

Am I just getting old and crabby? Am I unreasonable? I would never have taken my toddlers to an adult meeting and let them run around. I haven't said a thing to the LYSO, and she tolerates it, so maybe if it bothers me, I am the one that should leave?

Jan

anderknit
Permanent Resident

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2011 :  7:00:05 PM  Show Profile Send anderknit a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a tough question with many many sides and points of view, but being a mother of 2, I'm in the camp of no-kids-at-adult-evening-activities. If I wanted to knit with kids around, I'd stay home and knit with my own kids! But seriously, this is one of those situations that could have been prevented (or minimized) with more communication. The shop owner could have advertised the evening as "kids welcome" or "no kids, please!", and all this would have been avoided or made easier to address. At this point, I think the thing to do is mention it to the owner (not during the knit-time) and see how she reacts. Then you have the decision to make as to whether to put up with it or not attend.

By the way, you may be getting crabby, but so what? That's one of the (few) benefits of getting older - you've earned the right to be crabby!

"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, 'I will try again tomorrow.' "
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jaymeKnits
Permanent Resident

USA
1350 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2011 :  7:14:48 PM  Show Profile  Send jaymeKnits a Yahoo! Message Send jaymeKnits a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a mother of 2 I see both sides. I've brought a child a few times. When they were tiny and happy to lay there looking at everything and have people ogle them I don't think it interrupted anything, if anything I had people seem disappointing when I started leaving them at home. I've stopped in for a few minutes with my kids if I need to. Since then my oldest is 3 so at this age they just want to explore and get into things. I try to keep them in check and don't stay long at all, maybe 15 minutes at the most.

Honestly I think the chair thing is a tiny bit crabby (sorry but you asked). If there is really a problem you could start throwing a folding chair in your trunk or ask the store owner to get some for the shop. We have had spouses sit and read in the corner and I don't think anyone had an issue that they were taking up space, would you have the same problem if it was an adult instead of a child? Just food for thought.

Jayme

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signature? Who needs a signature?
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rosir
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
442 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2011 :  7:19:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit rosir's Homepage Send rosir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you are crabby, then so am I. Perhaps there should be a separate knit night for those with small children. As far as the seating issue and wandering, a child has to learn polite behavior. I see your dilema as an example of a trend toward a new solipcism. "as long as I'm comfy and happy, no need to bother about anyone else"
It may be that the LYSO doesn't want to speak up, for fear of losing business. Times are tough for small businesses. I bet dollars to donuts that you are not the only one, simmering over the inappropriate behavior. A few not so subtle hints might be in order.

Rosi, getting down from her high horse now
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rosir
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
442 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2011 :  02:58:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit rosir's Homepage Send rosir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and BTW, if hubby doesn't have yarn in his lap, let him bring his own chair. It is afterall, Knit Night!
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Jane
SustaYning Member

USA
4388 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2011 :  03:27:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jane's Homepage Send Jane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Rosi. I usually do, but that's because she's right most of the time... Anyway, if I had children and wanted/needed to bring them to Knit Night at my LYS, I would *ask permission* of the owner and my fellow knitters. And I would not let them inconvenience anyone. Jayme, who has been in this situation, cuts her visit short, which I think is a considerate way to handle it since the group knows her children and might like to see them, but might not want the distraction for the entire night.

If this is a gathering that has a long history, and everyone knows each other pretty well, there's no reason that the moms can't be asked to leave their kids at home, or to set some boundaries while they are there.

Jane

Betty deserves everything and more: Make a Donation
Blog: Not Plain Jane
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donnawatk
Seriously Hooked

766 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2011 :  04:06:56 AM  Show Profile Send donnawatk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess you can add me to the crabby list. Knitting for me is my time.I have two kids. I was brought up if there was a adult that was standing and there wasn't any seat I was to get up. I'm fifty+ and I still get up for older people and so do my kids. We had a knit night and the little girl was running across the couch and jumping at the end. I waited for her mother to say something and she didn't when she came running I stop her. Her Mom was mad. That's when the group said something. Did I say it was two of us sitting on the couch at the time.Donna
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NutmegOwl
Gabber Extraordinaire

581 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2011 :  06:59:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit NutmegOwl's Homepage Send NutmegOwl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ditto Donna - when I go out with "The Ladies" as they are known Chez Owl, it is a Mommy-only event. They love Darling Bebe, but at age 3, if she comes, it means all-parenting-and-no-knitting for me. Thus, she does not get a seat. At least not until she is old enough to knit. Sadly, too few parents consider that their own little dears may not be everyone else's delight - at an LYS or elsewhere.

More power to the LYSO who sets a policy, though I can see that doing so after the fact might be awkward. It is also incumbent on the LYSO to provide enough seating for those who would come to participate.

I don't think it has a thing to do with crabbiness. It has to do with common courtesy.

-----
Nutmeg Owl
Quaecumque sunt vera
http://www.owlwaysknitting.wordpress.com
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Shelia
Permanent Resident

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2011 :  07:40:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit Shelia's Homepage Send Shelia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I of course must always agree with Rosi, Jane and Owl. Knit nights are adult get-away time for most of the mothers in our group, and they are the first ones (us crabby types notwithstanding) to voice their feelings when someone brings a child. Also, while we are generally fine, upstanding, clean-mouthed ladies at my group, we don't want to have to watch our conversation and eliminate any "improper" topics or words. A few weeks ago a mother brought her 8-ish y/o son who wanted to learn to knit, and was gently told that it's an adults-only group. She complained indignently that they had come specially, and would not stay long, so the store employee reluctantly agreed that they could stay while she taught the boy to cast on and the knit stitch. In the meantime, our 80+ y/o Starmore-devotee knitter arrived and after a few minutes began to tell us about her new beau, an 80+ widower who lives in the same retirement community. Her story of how they were "outed" to the rest of the residents involved registering for one room on an overnight sponsored outing had us rolling on the floor laughing, but I noticed that while the little boy only had attention for his knitting, mom was tight-lipped. Mom came in the next morning to complain to the owner about our racy conversation, and was told that she had chosen to stay when she was told it was adults only. (It was one of the tamest "racy conversations" that I've taken part in that I can remember)

Oh, and I was raised to give up my seat to an older person as well. Knitters need to sit on a chair, generally, and kids can easily sit on the floor or Mom's lap. Purely my opinion. Babies are always welcome, but if they are fussy most moms are very thoughtful and take them home, if not, then a quiet word from the LYS host is in order.

Shelia
www.letstalkstash.blogspot.com
ravelry name - sheliaknits
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knitree
Seriously Hooked

688 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2011 :  12:48:45 PM  Show Profile Send knitree a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a time when I knit with a group every week. We all had kids the same age. We all did our best to leave the kids at home. If kids came, very little knitting got done by that mom because she had to wear the mom hat. In other words, it is more fun for the moms too if kiddies stay home. Unfortunately, sometimes it is either come with your child or don't come at all. If that is the case, then mom should bring quiet toys or games for the kiddie, to enjoy on the floor by her feet or at a small separate table. Perhaps a conversation with the owner, as suggested, and some gentle guidelines would make it better for all concerned. And, imho, except for out-and-out cursing, no conversation at an adult event should have to be curtailed because of a child. If it is, then it is not an adult event, but a family event, and that is a different cup-of-tea.

Tree
Taking simple patterns and complicating them...
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Milinda
Permanent Resident

USA
3817 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2011 :  1:33:12 PM  Show Profile Send Milinda a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now that I am old, I am crabby, but on the subject of kids at adult nights out, I have been crabby always.

Unless someone is knitting, he/she should give up a chair to one who is there to knit. And at all times, I offer to give up my seat for all who are older than I. Granted, there are getting to be less of those around, but I think you know what I mean.

Children require supervision and interaction and if they behave badly or are a nuisance, it is not their faults but that of those who are in charge. If the evening is a kids are welcome event, no problem, they should be there but I won't be. If I go somewhere to interact with other knitters and to have adult laughs and discussions, I am not comfortable with kids present.

I agree that it is a difficult situation for the LYS owner, but if one is to keep customers, it's probably a good idea to have a night where kids can come for those customers but not to have them on the night when adults want to knit and hang out.

One thing I think many mothers of young children forget is that while they have grown used to the noise, many of us like to be somewhere to decompress from our days for an evening and the sound level that unsupervised kids can produce is anything but relaxing. OTOH, if it is an event especially for little people, their giggling and laughter is a joy!

M L
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jtamsn
Permanent Resident

USA
1684 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2011 :  3:29:07 PM  Show Profile Send jtamsn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jan, I completely agree with you and the others. I love children,but they do require supervision and common courtesy shoud prevail. If one had not sitter, then, call me crabby, but they should beg off that night.
judy
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phlame
Permanent Resident

USA
1559 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2011 :  3:42:27 PM  Show Profile Send phlame a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like being crabby....other wise, I wouldn't be crabby! And I agree with everyone that said it was a Knit Night for adults only. No kids! Have another knit night during the day for the moms with kids. The kids should be in bed at night.

Shirley, Dana Point, CA

...Iím fairly certain that, given a cape and a nice tiara, I could save the world.


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sockjoan
Warming Up

Australia
59 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  01:05:38 AM  Show Profile Send sockjoan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sometimes mothers aren't able to leave their children at home; but the children should not leave their manners at home! Children can sit on the floor; this is much harder for adults, specially older ones. And of course children who are actually knitting are in a separate category and deserve chairs unless there aren't enough to go round.
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stherio
New Pal

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  04:18:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit stherio's Homepage Send stherio a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's my take on this: when my kids were young, lots of MY things were put on hold, like knitting groups, etc. That's just the way it was. I understand why young moms want to bring to their children. Many work and they want to be with their children AND still have the group! Also as a 50+ knitter, I want to be with adults when I expect to be with adults. Maybe the LYS could have a "Mom & Child" night where not only could Moms bring their child, but there could be someone there to teach them some facet of fiber. Note, I said "child"........but, I would expect even if you do that, someone would bring their 10 kids and they would just run around. Net of this, I think it's up to the LYS owner to set the parameters. And yes, where I came from, "children were to be seen and not heard", and to give up their seat to an adult without being asked!

Suzy
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Black Sheep
New Pal

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  04:53:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit Black Sheep's Homepage Send Black Sheep a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think children should be allowed,given a chair, and treated royally. Yes, I am serious. Plus, I run a very popular (20-40 per week) knitting group at my local library. I know the overwhelming number of women would say no children. But, I'm there to share the wonders of knitting and a life well-lived. This is impossible for me if I didn't have the occasion to rub shoulders with participant's children. and...yes, I think your post leaned toward the crabby side...I hope it was just a bad day. Enjoy what life brings you. Kindly, Linda
quote:
Originally posted by hillstreetmama

What do you think? Once a week, there's a come-together-and-knit time at the LYS. We've been known to bring adult beverages to share, along with all our projects. Sometimes, we just share stories and laughs. Over the years, a few people would bring along a small child, or two, or three... Sometimes the kids sit at the table with mom - sometimes there is not enough adult seating and we could use the space. Sometimes the children are allowed (by mom) to wander around unsupervised.

My personal feeling is that if the child is knitting, he/she belongs there. If not, the mother should have the child in sight at all times. If an adults comes to knit, the non-knitting child should give up his/her seat to the knitter.

Am I just getting old and crabby? Am I unreasonable? I would never have taken my toddlers to an adult meeting and let them run around. I haven't said a thing to the LYSO, and she tolerates it, so maybe if it bothers me, I am the one that should leave?

Jan




linda lee sparkman
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yarngourmet
New Pal

4 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  05:04:27 AM  Show Profile Send yarngourmet a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course the child should give up the seat for a knitter - or any other adult, for that matter. It is a simple matter of respecting one's elders. A concept woefully lacking in today's society.
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sward
New Pal

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  05:19:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit sward's Homepage Send sward a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would not be coming to Knit Night at that shop if there were kids who should be in bed running around. ("Knit Night" assumes after dinner). Mom, get a babysitter, maybe two or three moms could get a sitter and share for an hour or two. That totally defeats the purpose of Mom's (and other knitter's) getting out & away from home to knit and be with friends.

If the kid is knitting, or learning to knit, they are old enough to sit at the table. Husbands who knit should bring their own chairs or stay home with the toddlers.
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LearnedInGirlScouts
New Pal

9 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  06:13:27 AM  Show Profile Send LearnedInGirlScouts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jan, I don't think you're crabby. And I wholeheartedly agree with you. At any group meeting, children in attendance should be supervised by their parent[s], and anyone [child or adult]not actively participating in the event should give up their seat to a participant. That said, you may have to learn to live with the situation. There are so many young parents out there who seem oblivious to what their children are doing. I'm not sure if they just don't care, if they really don't know any better, or just expect everyone else to watch out for their children.
I've watched children playing catch in the grocery store, kids hanging off the rails of boats in our store, and children re-arranging the members orders at our food co-op and helping themselves to snack bars from someone's food basket. With mom or dad too busy shopping or chatting to pay any attention. And looking really aggrieved if someone else dares tell their child to please stop doing whatever they're doing before someone gets hurt or something gets broken.
I wonder how calm Blacksheep would be if the children started wandering off and tearing pages out of books?
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marfa
Permanent Resident

USA
2027 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  06:36:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit marfa's Homepage Send marfa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How do.

This topic has reminded me of the many reasons I love KR: a tho'tful question, tho'tful answers, sharing, being open & forthright. Lovely answers all.

Most of my knitting groups have been grown-ups only. That's been a beautiful thing as folks have let the topics range from A to Z & many are not PG rated! As a person who does not have children of her own, I love holding a baby & playing w/ little ones brings me joy.

If the group meets in a shop, the knit shop owner sets the parameters of the knitting group & she/he can make those decisions, informing the group accordingly. If the group is at a home, that person makes the call &/or the group does.

My job is in retail & I deal w/many parents whose children decide to rearrange a shelf or move things completely across the store or open a package or bash a product. For the ones who step up to stop the child from those behaviors or those who say "Look w/your eyes only!" or are watchful, I am grateful. For the ones who let the kids roam unsupervised or who think everything the child does is precious, I say in my head "start saving for therapy now" because the child is not being taught sensible & respectful behaviors & that will not help her/him at all.

And a P.S., I'm w/Shelia - Rosi, Jane & Miz Nutmeg are smart women whose opinions I value & trust.

Martha

http://marfasmewsings.blogspot.com
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metromaples
Seriously Hooked

USA
878 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  06:37:28 AM  Show Profile Send metromaples a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sign me up for the crabby list. Knit night is not for kids, who are not knitting. (too many nots, but you know what I mean...) If they just have to come, and are well behaved, and mom stays just as long as they are, then ok, but not all the time. I have been in the position of ousting a teenage dragee from one of the comfy chairs "in the circle" when an older member arrived, and there were no more chairs close by. The teen was somewhat indignant but eventually agreed to move, even though that meant leaving the chair near the plug in. I'm thinking "charge it at home", but resisted the urge to say that out loud.

-- Jeri
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