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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1230 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2007 : 10:50:35 AM
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Hi,
Recently there was a documentary on the Inkas in French TV and they showed some pictures of women in the Andes spindle spinning. Unfortunately I haven't taped the show, so I couldn't replay in slow motion. Because it looked like any spindle spinning I've seen so far (which, granted, isn't all that much) and I can't imagine how they do it: It almost looked like they were playing with a yo-yo - just throwing the spindle down (it perfectly confirmed the German text of "Sleeping Beauty" where the princess asks something like "What sort of funny thing is that, jumping up and down like this?". Does anybody know how that's done (apart from practising some 20 years)?
Thanks for any info or links to pictures, instructions or videos...
Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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Shelia
Permanent Resident
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 7:01:54 PM
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Klara, what you saw is exactly what Abby was calling a "yarn trick" out at SOAR. She was using the method to show plying off the balcony, but the motion seems to be what you saw in the documentary. Hopefully she'll pop in to describe it in detail, but what I saw her doing was spinning the spindle between her hands, and sort of launching it out, down and away from her body. This was a bottom-whorl spindle, which from my own observations is the type used in the Andes.
Then again, maybe they were just showing off their own version of a "yarn trick" for the documentary camera.
Shelia
www.letstalkstash.blogspot.com |
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arlinem
Gabber Extraordinaire
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 3:32:06 PM
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| are you talking about andean plying? at the risk of stating the obvious, its a way to ply a single back on itself by first making a small skein around your hand and into a bracelet when you drop it off your middle finger. you then ply the end from the inside of the skein with the end from the outside and you end up with a 2ply yarn. really suitable for small amounts of yarn as large amounts can get snikity. |
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1230 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 06:00:22 AM
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No, Arlinem, I'm not talking about Andean plying, I know how to do that. I'm talking about spinning, and it most probably is very similar to Abby's "yarn trick" (except that those women would probably not call it a "trick" but say something like "Yes, that's how yarn is spun - why, is it unusual? We've always done it like this...") I want to be able to do it, but I don't even know where to start practicing (and yes, I am able to spin on a spindle, and I even thought I was halfway competent... Past tense.)
Abby, please help!
Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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Wheat
Gabber Extraordinaire
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 06:54:33 AM
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If you look thru back issues of Spin-Off, (I can't remember dates and that box is not accessible at the moment - but it will have been while Deb Robson was still the editor)
There have been several articles about Andean/Incan spinning technqiues.
It was Abby's dad, Ed Franquemont who first shared the techniques that made Drop Spinning,
Slower by the Hour,
Faster by the Week
And had just about everyone I know walking, talking and spinning Andean style from Maryland Sheep & Wool to Soar, The Black Sheep festival and every where in between.
Some of us still do, although the style has evolved to accommodate individual quirks over the years (at least for me anyway)
Hope this points you in the proper direction, maybe Abby can tell us more.
Wheat
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eepster
Seriously Hooked
USA
704 Posts |
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1230 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2007 : 08:24:41 AM
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Thanks Wheat! Your quote reminded me that I have Spin-Off's Handspindel Treasury right here, and Ed Franquemont's article is in there. I'll read it (I got the book ages ago when I just started to spin and I couldn't appreciate the subtleties then) and if I still have any question afterwards I'll ask them here.
Jen, I don't know HOW they do it - it was just a camera sweep over a street with a woman spinning so fast it made my mouth drop open. It was not a documentary on Andean textile techniques but on the Incas with a few pictures of their descendents (including a knitting man - it's only the men who knit - carrying the yarn around his neck, knitting an intricate pattern incredibly fast with tiny needles and saying: "We learn as children and then we knit all the time").
Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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Wheat
Gabber Extraordinaire
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2007 : 09:21:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kade1301
I don't know HOW they do it - it was just a camera sweep over a street with a woman spinning so fast it made my mouth drop open. It was not a documentary on Andean textile techniques but on the Incas with a few pictures of their descendents (including a knitting man - it's only the men who knit - carrying the yarn around his neck, knitting an intricate pattern incredibly fast with tiny needles and saying: "We learn as children and then we knit all the time").
That sounds like one of the several documentaries Ed was involved with.
There is another that had to do with the building of a bridge.
Here is a link to a transcript from one of the NOVA productions.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2404inca.html
There are also an amazing amount of documents spread around hte web about him and his work as an anthropolgist.
I blame his class on braiding (I was a dismal failure) for causing me to get involved with Kumihimo - that and the fact that having my toe turning blue vs using a marudai seemed a better choice.
It was likely his wonderful stories that kept so many of us taking even the beginning classes with Ed. Anyone who had an interest in history and textiles could be captivated for hours - never mind what the class was supposed to be about.
TheHenry & I have several of the documentaries around here on tape.
Wheat
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1230 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 06:09:31 AM
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Wheat, not to minimize Ed Franquemont's achievements, but this French documentary really was French - made by the team of "C'est pas sorcier". This is a series of science programs (in the largest sense) aimed primarily at children, but also very interesting for adults (well, at least for me). They teach you how the Channel tunnel was built, how a dairy farm works, how medicines act on the body, that nobody knows how to deal with nuclear waste (but it is sure that the concrete it's incased in will cruble while radioactivity is still going on), how eyes see, how paper is made, how fighter aircraft are flown, how cathedrals were built and how the Vikings raided Normandy - in short, everything the producers can think of. So, if you ever are in France (or can capture France 3 via satellite) have a look!
Unfortunately, so far I haven't seen a documentary specifically on textile techniques - maybe I should suggest they make one...
Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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Shelia
Permanent Resident
USA
2231 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 07:57:34 AM
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Wow, I wish we could see these documentaries here in the US, they sound very interesting. The only overseas channels we get are the Spanish ones from Mexico and SA, sometimes a Japanese channel, and BBC. Maybe if I lived in Canada...
Shelia
www.letstalkstash.blogspot.com |
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Knittlin
Warming Up
USA
73 Posts |
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KathyR
Permanent Resident
New Zealand
2862 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 4:33:54 PM
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Interesting video, Linda. Were those women using a type of long-draw method - predrafting and wrapping it around their hands before drawing it out fully and putting in the final amount of twist? It was a little hard to really see what was going on. I think I will need to watch it again a few times. Good written description, too.
KathyR
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.
My Blog
http://www.flickr.com/groups/kr_members/ (Roselea Fibres) |
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Knittlin
Warming Up
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 6:05:22 PM
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I have no earthly idea, Kathy, but would love to know myself. If I could learn how to spin and walk at the same time, my drop spindle might get brought out of the closet where it's been since I bought a wheel early last year. So, after reading this thread and thinking this might be fun, I went searching for anything I could find on Andean spinning. Alas, those videos were all I could find.
~ Linda ~
Love thy neighbor ... and if he happens to be tall, debonair and devastating, it will be that much easier. ~ Mae West |
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llinn
honorary angel
USA
1650 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 7:52:03 PM
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http://www.incas.org/SPChinchero.htm
There's no video here, but a lot of pictures, with an emphasis on the backstrap weaving patterns. Lots to look at and enjoy.
Llinn |
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Chemcats
Permanent Resident
3337 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 06:08:10 AM
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Kade, have you checked out Abby's blog? Awesome. She has all kinds of things you would be interested in, including a very personal review of a book written by a dear friend of hers when she was a child living in Peru. Check out her videos too.
Meribeth |
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1230 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 11:11:04 AM
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I know Abbys blog - unfortunately it takes extremely long to load on dial-up. But still, I believe I have read all her articles on handspinning - but I didn't find a detailed description of the Andean technique. I can't watch the linked videos either :-( - download is just too slow...
Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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Knittlin
Warming Up
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 3:52:30 PM
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Bummer, Kade!! Do you have a library nearby that might have faster service? Or a friend?
About the video ~ the spindles in it don't really jump up and down, but the women are standing and spinning awfully fast. The spindles do tend to stay near the ground for quite a while, adding lots of twist. When they're down there, it looks like the group of women are playing with toys that are a sort of combination spinning top and yoyo. I wish you could see it. It's really fabulous to watch!
"Were those women using a type of long-draw method - predrafting and wrapping it around their hands before drawing it out fully and putting in the final amount of twist?"
I went back to look at it fully this time and pay attention to that part, Kathy, and that looks like precisely what they're doing. It looks like it allows them to spin the spindle extremely fast and drop it immediately, letting out more fiber quickly and ending up with a length of yarn/single that stretches to the ground in no time. Then they just let the spindle spin on or extremely near the ground to add more twist and roll it on, then predraft a bit and start the whole process over again.
Did anyone else notice that the woman plying the red singles had a baby in a sling against her chest? How cool is that... Just thought that was a sweet thing to see ~ so natural and homey while she spins.
~ Linda ~
Love thy neighbor ... and if he happens to be tall, debonair and devastating, it will be that much easier. ~ Mae West |
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KathyR
Permanent Resident
New Zealand
2862 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 2:30:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Knittlin
"Were those women using a type of long-draw method - predrafting and wrapping it around their hands before drawing it out fully and putting in the final amount of twist?"
I went back to look at it fully this time and pay attention to that part, Kathy, and that looks like precisely what they're doing. It looks like it allows them to spin the spindle extremely fast and drop it immediately, letting out more fiber quickly and ending up with a length of yarn/single that stretches to the ground in no time. Then they just let the spindle spin on or extremely near the ground to add more twist and roll it on, then predraft a bit and start the whole process over again.
~ Linda ~
I thought that was the case, Linda. I guess they need lots of twist as the yarn they make is predominantly used as a warp for weaving and needs to be fine and strong. A very interesting video. I checked out Abby's website (yet again! - lots of info there) and read about her learning to spin when a child in Peru. Again, very interesting!
KathyR
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.
My Blog
http://www.flickr.com/groups/kr_members/ (Roselea Fibres) |
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afranquemont
Warming Up
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 07:10:22 AM
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I can't believe you guys didn't drop me a line and point me to this thread! I'm just horribly behind with all forums type activities lately for a slew of reasons, but let me see if I can shed some light.
Andean spinners use low whorl spindles exclusively. Within that, they're generally referred to as a pushka (or Nilda Callañaupa Alvarez of the Center for Traditional Textiles of Cusco spells it phusca -- one of the fun things about working with things in a language that has been entirely unwritten until quite recently is that you just don't know how to spell it) and a canti. Pushkas are smaller and lighter than cantis, and are for spinning as opposed to plying; neither is "light" by modern standards. You might use the same spindle (in a medium weight) for both purposes, but the words for doing it remain the same: pushka is the verb to spin, canti is the verb to ply.
There is essentially no low twist Andean yarn; low twist yarn does not wear well and Andean spinning is still a living tradition dealing with the production of textiles intended to be used, a tradition which until recently had little interaction with the industrialized world's acceptance of lower-grade, less-durable textiles. The amount of twist in Andean yarn far exceeds what modern first world standards will generally accept -- for the entire life of the yarn, no matter how it's washed and so on, plied yarn will kink up on itself when not stored under tension. However, fabrics woven (or knit) from this yarn wear incredibly well: I have daily-use items over 20 years old which need only minor repairs, and textiles which have seen many generations of wear (such as a child's lliclla or manta which is about 60 years old).
Fiber prep consists of hand-teasing, and pulling cleaned fiber into a roving. This is often a task that children are put to work doing. The majority of the action, however, is in the spinning stages. Typical spinning technique is a very fast double-drafting method which uses an initial long draw followed by subsequent slub correction. Spinners will spin varying lengths of yarn per draw before winding on, but they're generally much longer lengths than modern first world spinners think is feasible with a spindle. By storing spun yarn via walking it up into a butterfly on your hand, it's possible to control very large lengths of yarn -- limitless, basically.
For spinning, the spindle is generally started with a flick of the fingers akin to snapping them. Yes, you may run out of spin, but if you do, you walk yarn up and give the spindle more spin again, and keep going before you wind on.
When you have a full spindle, you will either spin another full spindle (thus arriving at a point where you have two full spindles), or, if you only have one spindle, wind off into a tight, coursed outer-feed ball (I tend to refer to these as Peruvian style balls to differentiate them from the loose, non-coursed balls commonly wound by hand in the modern first world, but they're not the only place such balls are wound). Once you have either two balls of singles, or two full spindles, you then wind these together in turn. If you plan to dye the yarn, you wind them into a skein -- typically by planting the two spindles in the ground, standing next to them and then using your arms to wrap the skein. This particular trick is a lot easier to do than to describe, although it's not exactly easy until you get the hang of it.
When you get to the end of one spindle, this is where some spinners make use of what Americans now call "Andean Plying," after my father's article entitled "An Andean Plying Technique," in Spin-Off a while ago. Folks with an interest in the cultural aspect of things will perhaps find it worth note that not all spinners use this technique, and those who do use it only sometimes. While clever and convenient in various settings, it is not widely viewed as a production technique; and even where it is used, it tends to be used to wind a two-stranded ball most of the time.
Most significant, in my opinion, is that this technique, and many others like it, are obvious and throwaway things to the Andean weaver (who is by nature a spinner as well), and whose comfort with all things textile-related allows for all manner of tricks such as this to facilitate the completion of textile tasks with simple tools or even no tools at all beyond your own hands. I believe this to be the most significant difference between the Andean textile producer's mindset, and the mindset of modern first-world producers who tend more towards creating tools to handle specialized purposes.
Yarn is dyed in this two-stranded, unplied state -- because if you tried to dye it after plying you'd have inadequate penetration due to the amount of twist in both spin and ply which gives Andean textiles the resilience and water resistance they posess (an Andean poncho will shed rain for quite a long time, becoming wet on the outside but not soaking through to the inside, literally for hours).
Experienced spinners then drape the dyed, double-stranded skeins over their arms -- inserting one arm through the center -- and ply straight from that as it hangs there. I don't recommend this technique to people who are not comfortable with working directly from loose skeins, especially loose skeins of extremely fine, extremely high-twist yarn. Instead, I recommend doing what kids do: rewind the skein into a tight ball that feeds from the outside, with those courses for various other clever reasons I won't get into here, and go.
Neither the pushka nor the kanti has a hook or notch; both have a simple shaft, and a plain round whorl near the bottom of the shaft. The very bottom of the shaft is tapered to a point, so you can easily stick it in the ground to wind off from and so that it reduces the drag when your spindle gets really full and you're in semi-supported mode, as may happen. While a lot of low whorl drop spindle aficionados in the modern first world use a wind-on method which involves going under the whorl and then back up to the top of the shaft, leaving a chunk of yarn floating in midair, Andean spinners simply twirl the yarn up the shaft and secure with one or two half-hitches. This is essential to the real Andean plying technique that allows you to get the speed you want to get the job done.
To start the spindle for plying, place the shaft flat against the palm of one hand, lightly holding it there with your thumb if you need to. Put your other hand flat aginst it, fingertips basically where the spindle is. Put your elbows at about waist height or so, and then take that second hand and push forward, rolling the spindle shaft down the first hand as you go. When it gets to the end, let go, and let double-stranded yarn feed out, stopping it before it hits anything. You can now use that first hand for all manner of manipulations on the yarn if needed, including making a big upside down L out of the yarn so you can control really staggering lengths of yarn doing this... or, as I showed folks at SOAR last year, do the thing we did as girls showing off and goofing off: ply off an Inca terrace or a balcony or what have you.
That trick, incidentally, requires a fair amount of confidence in your yarn, your plying, and your ability to feel the yarn to gauge how much twist is still going at a great distance, because you can't see it. And also your half hitch. Screwing it up when we were kids would mean the spindle would go flying and there'd be a lot of teasing. It was one of a number of silly tricks kids would do.
The most important spindle behaviour required to make this type of production spinning possible, btw, is sustain. The spindle needs to spin for a long, long time. How fast it spins is not necessarily relevant; you can get a spindle spinning faster than most people (outside the Andes and being raised to it from birth anyway) can draft, and what becomes a bottleneck to productivity is if it *stops* spinning.
It doesn't take 20 years of practice to learn to do these things, however -- in fact, it takes about a half an hour. But, they're much easier to learn in person, and I find they're sometimes easier for people who have not already learned other spindle techniques which they've then got to set aside a little bit.
Andean spinners get most of their spinning done while on the go -- walking from town to town, walking places in general, etc. Indigenous Andean mothers also carry their babies with them pretty much all the time (like, unless their big sister is carrying the baby or something -- in the third world, there's often not a good place to put a baby down). Babies are swaddled tightly, and carried on the back in a kheparina, which is like a manta (a square carrying cloth). When babies are awake, they're perched such that they're watching over mom's shoulder. When asleep, the kheparina is relaxed so they're laying down flat. When they're nursing, it's swung around to the front.
Let me know if you want to hear more about knitting; this is already long. Or, of course, if you have questions about what I've said. And for the interested, I really recommend Nilda Callañaupa Alvarez's new book, "Weaving in the Peruvian Andes," from Interweave: http://www.interweave.com/weave/books/PeruvianAndes/
Klara, as an aside for you -- do the European variants of Sleeping Beauty suggest a spindle, then, and not a wheel? I learned of Sleeping Beauty after learning to spin, and when I heard the story, I assumed she got a splinter from a spindle, and there was no wheel involved; then later I learned Americans all assumed some sort of wheel.
Abby Franquemont
http://abbysyarns.com/ |
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KathyR
Permanent Resident
New Zealand
2862 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 3:30:53 PM
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Abby, what a great, in-depth reply! Thank you so much for answering our questions. Seeing the little video and reading your explanation really makes me interested in trying out a low whorl spindle. I am able to spin with a high whorl but seldom use it. I must take it out again!
KathyR
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.
My Blog
http://www.flickr.com/groups/kr_members/ (Roselea Fibres) |
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llinn
honorary angel
USA
1650 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 7:52:03 PM
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Traditional and even paleolithic textile techniques fascinate me. Is there any way we can get a schedule of your "appearances" Abby? I would dearly love to be able to watch you demonstrate the Andean techniques.
Llinn |
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Andean Spinning?
